Joël —

The "binding and loosing" is generally not applied to doctrine. Doctrine does not become true by virtue of being declared by the Church.

It is usually applied to discipline, to forgiveness of sins, to the power to bind under pain of sin, and to treatment of heretics and sinners.

Mary Ann

Hi, Mary Ann —

Am I missing something? You said:
The "binding and loosing" is generally not applied to doctrine.

It isn't?

If your statement is true: You can make up your own doctrine...right?
Did you mean discipline?

You said:
Doctrine does not become true by virtue of being declared by the Church.

I agree. but when a Church teaching is declared as doctrine by the Church, the faithful now know:

• What is true and what is not true, publicly.
• Who is, and who is not, a heretic.

I think we need more clarification on your answer.

Mike

Mike —

What I was addressing Joël's implication that the Church's solemn declaration made a truth binding in heaven. Truth is truth. The power of the keys refers to power to bind people to believe (on earth) and to bind people morally to obey and to loose people from sin (which is held bound in heaven also).

I think Joel was trying to reason or understand infallibility from the fact that God accepts the declarations of the Church about doctrine as binding. That would make truth a function of God's will, voluntarism, not a function of His mind. That is the Muslim position. Perhaps my statement was not nuanced enough - yes, the keys to apply to binding people to believe in faith, but they do not make something true in heaven.

Mary Ann

I think binding and loosing has more to do with discipline than doctrine. That's how the Jews understood it.

As Mary Ann pointed out, guarding and defending what is revealed as true is not really binding and loosing. You can bind and loose penalties on those who violate that revealed truth, but truth is truth.

Eric