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Al Aguero wrote:

Hi, guys —

I have some basic but difficult questions. I'm trying to understand the Life and Mystery of the Trinity in the fullest sense that the Church would allow while respecting what we can't know.
I'm hoping you can clarify the issue by the following questions:

  • If God is infinite, beyond human thought and expression, then:
    • How can Jesus be God?
    • How can He be God in total?
  • Is Jesus merely the image or Presentation of God, whereby He is God on Earth, but not God as God; more like the presence of God that was pre-sent and is known through prophecy and the Scriptures; now known because of the Scriptures?
  • What aspect of God, that is beyond our mortal body, would Jesus not be the entire revelation of God, such that God cannot be fully expressed in the flesh in time, hence that aspect of Jesus, that is not fully human, though fully God?

Al Aguero

  { How much can we understand about God or the Holy Trinity with our human minds? }

Paul replied:

Al,

The divinity of Christ means that Jesus is the eternal Second Person of God who has a divine nature. This eternal Second Person of the Trinity took on a created human nature; hence it is right to say that Jesus is one divine Person with two natures (divine and human).

Picture your soul embodying not only you, but also the body and nature of a dog. While you sit in the living room reading Shakespeare you are also running around, barking and trying to catch your tail. Yet, your personhood controls both. As a dog you can relate to other dogs, and as a man you have intellect, will, and self-awareness. Your human nature is master over your canine nature.

This is a very poor analogy since God is uncreated, infinite and eternal, but it may give you a tiny glimpse into the idea of one person having two different natures.

The hypostatic union or Incarnation is when the eternal, invisible Second Person of the Holy Trinity took on a created, human nature to become man, so that as a man, He could become the New Adam to fix what Adam (and the rest of us) broke through sin.

Paul

Al replied:

Thanks, Paul —

So that would mean that the Person of Jesus, and the Second Person of God, is finite or limited by the human body, or only partially manifest in the created human body, because God, the Father, the First Person of God, cannot be incorporated fully in a created being. That would mean my professor is correct, that Christ is the manifestation of God, God's presence, but not
God qua God, which would be more akin to the ultimate Idea in Platonic philosophy.

  • But then, we have to ask: Is the Third Person of God, the Holy Spirit, corporeal or
    semi-corporeal?

From a Scriptural viewpoint there are places in the Old Testament where people have said God cannot be seen, but others places where they have said they have seen God. I can provide book and chapter if needed.

  • How do we clarify this issue?
  • One last question, what about the Resurrected Body of Christ?
  • Is that more God qua God, or is God simply and always inexpressibly in total, which makes the Christian an finite image of God, while physical, and not God qua God in all his glory?

Al

Paul replied:

Al,

You can't contain the Second Person of God in a human body, for God is boundless but you can say that the boundless Second Person of the eternal Trinity took on a human nature, and that Jesus is divine, as well as human. You are picturing in your mind spatial containment. God transcends time and space so this image infinitely falls short.

The Holy Spirit is not corporeal. He is not called the holy body. Like the Father and the Son, He is the eternal boundless Spirit.

There are places in Scripture where manifestations of God are seen, but not God directly.
The burning bush for Moses, for example, Jacob wrestling with an angel, etc.

Whether Adam saw God in the garden before sin is debatable. In the New Testament Jesus' human nature is the most perfect manifestation of God, for it is the channel, in and through which, divine life is offered to humanity.

Paul

Mike replied:

Hi, Al —

Thanks for the question.

I just wanted to share with you what the Catechism says on this issue.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". (Council of Constantinople II (553): (DS) Denzinger-Schonmetzer 421) The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26) In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature." (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804)

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." (Fides Damasi: DS 71) "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25) They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804) The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528) Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330) "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son." (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331)

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called the Theologian, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople: 

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .

 
(St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 40,41: J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Greaca (Paris, 1867-1866) 36,417)

Hope this helps,

Mike

Al replied:

Thanks, Mike —

In paragraph 256 of your reply, it states:

"Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinities. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor."

Section 202, which is also key to the faith in Jesus Christ as God, says much the same.

I. I Believe In One God
.
.
202 Jesus himself affirms that God is "the one Lord" whom you must love "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength". (Mark 12:29-30) At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is "the Lord". (cf. Mark 12:35-37) To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as "Lord and giver of life" introduce any division into the One God:

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.

(Lateran Council IV: DS 800)

So when I ask:

  • What aspect of God, that is beyond our mortal body, would Jesus not be the entire revelation of God, such that God cannot be fully expressed in the flesh in time, hence that aspect of Jesus, that is not fully human, though fully God?

The answer seems to be while we cannot understand the totality of God being incarnated or manifested in Jesus Christ, He is indeed fully incarnated in the flesh as God, not in something beyond His realm, not in some Platonic Idea of the divine, beyond space, time, and eternity; which God also is; nevertheless, Jesus is fully manifest and not limited, even if we cannot understand this.

It's also my understanding that when Jesus appeared after the Resurrection He had a new body, such that, while Jesus is God on Earth, fully; He does not present Himself to us fully, since that is beyond human comprehension and beyond what can be contained or expressed in physical reality.

  • I am I getting this correct?

Al

Al replied:

Paul —

So the answer is that Jesus, in His Physical Reality, is limited by fact of his corporeal reality, by His Human Body and, as such, His existence on Earth, in body, is not the full expression of God, therefore, God could be not be fully expressed, because of the infinity that is God.

That said, it is not wrong to say that God is like a Platonic Idea, and Jesus is the manifestation of that idea, which cannot be expressed fully in reality, but rather reveals God, since there is no form that God could have, which could contain all that He is, and through Kenosis He chooses to reduce His Divinity, since all form is necessarily limited, so for God to be fully human, God, as Jesus, must limit himself.

Thus, Jesus is at once presented to us in a form we can see, and also exists beyond what we can see and know in form.

  • Is that correct?

In other places I have read that Jesus is fully manifested as God in the flesh and, as such, this means the unique person of Jesus is the complete embodiment of God and this notion of a platonic idea, where God is un-representable, is not exactly true; it's just that we cannot comprehend it.

Al

Paul replied:

Al,

In one sense He is and in another He is not.

A Platonic idea is a form, of which concrete particulars here on earth have their expression but it is a form of a species. For example, chairness is a form of which the variety of chairs on earth are concrete particulars; but it is different from the form tableness and justice. They are different essences or forms. Although the form chairness is not a concrete particular, it does have essence and boundary. God is pure form but not the form of a particular species. God is simply Being. Unlimited Being. Hence, all other beings are limited, including the hypothetical platonic ideas, and they all exist by participating in Being. Platonic ideas are not the fullness of being but only a small created essence in being.

So I wouldn't say Jesus is a concrete particular of the form God, for that borders on pantheism; but I'd rather say the Incarnation is the union pure Being and a created being sharing the same Personhood.

Peace,

Paul

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