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I have some basic but difficult questions.
I'm trying to understand the Life and Mystery
of the Trinity in the fullest sense that the
Church would allow while respecting what we
can't know.
I'm hoping you can clarify the issue by the
following questions:
If God is infinite, beyond human thought
and expression, then:
How can Jesus be God?
How can He be God in total?
Is Jesus merely the image or Presentation
of God, whereby He is God on Earth, but
not God as God; more like the presence
of God that was pre-sent and is known through
prophecy and the Scriptures; now known
because of the Scriptures?
What aspect of God, that is beyond our
mortal body, would Jesus not be the entire
revelation of God, such that God cannot
be fully expressed in the flesh in
time,
hence that aspect of Jesus, that is not
fully human, though fully God?
Al Aguero
{
How
much can we understand about God or the Holy Trinity with
our human minds? }
Paul
replied:
Al,
The divinity of Christ means that
Jesus is the eternal Second Person
of God who has a divine nature. This
eternal Second Person of the Trinity
took on a created human nature; hence
it is right to say that Jesus is
one divine Person with two natures
(divine and human).
Picture your soul embodying not only
you, but also the body and nature
of a dog. While you sit in the living
room reading Shakespeare you are
also running around, barking and
trying to catch your tail. Yet, your
personhood controls both. As a dog
you can relate to other dogs, and
as a man you have intellect, will,
and self-awareness. Your human nature
is master over your canine nature.
This is a very poor analogy since
God is uncreated, infinite and eternal,
but it may give you a tiny glimpse
into the idea of one person having
two different natures.
The hypostatic union or Incarnation
is when the eternal, invisible Second
Person of the Holy Trinity took on
a created, human nature to become
man, so that as a man, He could become
the New Adam to fix what Adam (and
the rest of us) broke through sin.
Paul
Al
replied:
Thanks, Paul —
So that would mean that the Person
of Jesus, and the Second Person of
God, is finite or limited by the
human body, or only partially manifest
in the created human body, because
God, the Father, the First Person
of God, cannot be incorporated fully
in a created being. That would mean
my professor is correct, that Christ
is the manifestation of God, God's
presence, but not
God qua God, which would be more
akin to the ultimate Idea in Platonic
philosophy.
But then, we have to ask: Is the
Third Person of God, the Holy
Spirit, corporeal or
semi-corporeal?
From a Scriptural viewpoint there
are places in the Old Testament
where people have said God cannot
be seen, but others places where
they have said they have seen
God. I can provide book and chapter
if needed.
How do we clarify this
issue?
One last question, what about
the Resurrected Body of Christ?
Is that more God qua God, or
is God simply and always inexpressibly
in total, which makes the Christian
an finite image of God, while
physical, and not God qua God
in all his glory?
Al
Paul
replied:
Al,
You can't contain the Second Person
of God in a human body, for God is
boundless but you can say that the
boundless Second Person of the eternal
Trinity took on a human nature, and
that Jesus is divine, as well as
human. You are picturing in your
mind spatial containment. God transcends
time and space so this image infinitely
falls short.
The Holy Spirit is not corporeal.
He is not called the holy body. Like
the Father and the Son, He is the
eternal boundless Spirit.
There are places in Scripture where
manifestations of God are seen, but
not God directly.
The burning bush for Moses, for example,
Jacob wrestling with an angel, etc.
Whether Adam saw God
in the garden before sin is debatable.
In the New Testament Jesus' human
nature is the most perfect manifestation
of God, for it is the channel, in
and through which, divine life is
offered to humanity.
Paul
Mike
replied:
Hi, Al —
Thanks for the question.
I just wanted to share with you what
the Catechism says on this issue.
253The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". (Council of Constantinople II (553): (DS) Denzinger-Schonmetzer 421) The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26) In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature." (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804)
254The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." (Fides Damasi: DS 71) "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25) They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804) The divine Unity is Triune.
255The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528) Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330) "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son." (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331)
256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called the Theologian, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:
Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .
"Divinity without disparity
of substance or nature, without
superior degree that raises up
or inferior degree that casts
down. . . the infinite co-naturality
of three infinities. Each person
considered in himself is entirely
God. . . the three considered
together. . . I have not even
begun to think of unity when the
Trinity bathes me in its splendor."
Section 202, which is also key to
the faith in Jesus Christ as God,
says much the same.
I. I Believe In One God
.
.
202 Jesus himself affirms that God is "the one Lord" whom you must love "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength". (Mark 12:29-30) At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is "the Lord". (cf. Mark 12:35-37) To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as "Lord and giver of life" introduce any division into the One God:
We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.
(Lateran Council IV: DS 800)
So when I ask:
What aspect of God, that is beyond our
mortal body, would Jesus not be the entire
revelation of God, such that God cannot
be fully expressed in the flesh in
time,
hence that aspect of Jesus, that is not
fully human, though fully God?
The answer seems to be while we cannot
understand the totality of God being
incarnated or manifested in Jesus
Christ, He is indeed fully incarnated
in the flesh as God, not in something
beyond His realm, not in some Platonic
Idea of the divine, beyond space,
time, and eternity; which God also
is; nevertheless, Jesus is fully
manifest and not limited, even if
we cannot understand this.
It's also my understanding that when
Jesus appeared after the Resurrection
He had a new body, such that, while
Jesus is God on Earth, fully; He
does not present Himself to us fully,
since that is beyond human comprehension
and beyond what can be contained
or expressed in physical reality.
I am I getting this correct?
Al
Al
replied:
Paul —
So the answer is that Jesus, in His
Physical Reality, is limited by fact
of his corporeal reality, by His
Human Body and, as such, His existence
on Earth, in body, is not the full
expression of God, therefore, God
could be not be fully expressed,
because of the infinity that is God.
That said, it is not wrong to say
that God is like a Platonic Idea,
and Jesus is the manifestation of
that idea, which cannot be expressed
fully in reality, but rather reveals
God, since there is no form that
God could have, which could contain
all that He is, and through Kenosis He chooses to reduce His Divinity,
since all form is necessarily limited,
so for God to be fully human, God,
as Jesus, must limit himself.
Thus, Jesus is at once presented
to us in a form we can see, and also
exists beyond what we can see and
know in form.
Is that correct?
In other places I have read
that Jesus is fully manifested as
God in the flesh and, as such, this
means the unique person of Jesus
is the complete embodiment of God
and this notion of a platonic idea,
where God is un-representable, is
not exactly true; it's just that
we cannot comprehend it.
Al
Paul
replied:
Al,
In one sense He is and in another
He is not.
A Platonic idea is a form,
of which concrete particulars here
on earth have their expression but
it is a form of a species. For example, chairness is a form of which the
variety of chairs on earth are concrete
particulars; but it is different
from the form tableness and justice.
They are different essences or forms.
Although the form chairness is not
a concrete particular, it does have
essence and boundary. God is pure
form but not the form of a particular
species. God is simply Being. Unlimited
Being. Hence, all other beings are
limited, including the hypothetical
platonic ideas, and they all exist
by participating in Being. Platonic
ideas are not the fullness of being
but only a small created essence
in being.
So I wouldn't say Jesus is a concrete
particular of the form God,
for that borders on pantheism; but
I'd rather say the
Incarnation is the union pure Being
and a created being sharing the same
Personhood.
Peace,
Paul
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