Robert Luk wrote: |
|
Hi, guys —
- Did Jesus Christ have a body before the Incarnation?
My hunch is that He had a body. The body can be reduced to a strand of DNA during the Incarnation in St Mary's womb. I find that Jesus Christ has a body before the Incarnation to be believable. This is because God is a Triune being, and we are also a Triune being with the body, soul, and spirit.
In Genesis, God created Adam in God's image (Genesis 1:26,) so if Jesus Christ has a body, then this makes sense.
Also, if Jesus Christ has a body, then He is like us and more likely would want to save us before the Incarnation otherwise, Jesus Christ would be a Spirit before the Incarnation,
- So, why would He want to save us if we are different?
Also, Jesus Christ having a Body may prompt God to make a material world with a human being as a ruler on Earth since Heaven is ruled by God (Spirit). Also, the Trinity says that Jesus Christ (with the Body) is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit. This would make sense.
My feeling is that Jesus Christ should have a Body before the Incarnation.
Robert Luk
|
| { Did Jesus Christ have a Body before the Incarnation and why would He save us if He was a Spirit before the Incarnation? } |
Eric replied:
|
Robert,
Apologies for the late response on this; sometimes, questions fall through the cracks!
Jesus did not have a body before the Incarnation. That is the meaning of the Incarnation; he "took flesh" at that moment in St. Mary's womb. Jesus wanted to save us, even though He was Spirit before the Incarnation, because of His deep and unfathomable love for us.
In fact, some theologians believe that He planned to become Man in the Incarnation before He even created the world because He wanted to become "one of us" and unite us to His divinity through His humanity. It is impossible for us to understand how much God truly loves us! We cannot think as human beings would think in this matter.
If you think that Jesus always had a body, this is not possible to sustain because the Second Person of the Trinity existed from all eternity outside of time and "before" creation. (I say "before" because there is really no such concept, as time was part of creation, and "before" relates to time.) A body is made up of created matter, but creation is finite and has a beginning. The Second Person of the Trinity, being God, is infinite and uncreated. So if Jesus had a body, He could not be co-eternal with the Father.
It's also unclear to me if Jesus had a Body prior to his conception in St. Mary's womb, how that body would have entered the world if it already existed.
It's not like, for example, Jesus descended from Heaven full-grown. He began life as a zygote, like every other human being, and grew into a fetus and was born as a baby, then grew up into a man.
- How does your concept of Jesus having a body before His Conception fit into this?
- It seems Jesus would not be truly human in this case, no?
When Genesis says that God created Adam in God's image, it merely means that man is rational like God and unlike the animals. It doesn't mean that man looks like God.
Yes, to say that Jesus had a body before the Incarnation would be heresy.
Eric
|
Robert replied:
|
Dear Eric,
Many thanks for your reply.
After the Resurrection, I think Paul heard about encounters of Jesus Christ with His disciples. He may have realized that Jesus Christ after the Resurrection can go through walls like a Spirit but can also materialize with flesh and bones like us. So, Jesus Christ's Spiritual Body can be dematerialized into Spirit and materialized into Flesh before the Incarnation and after the Resurrection.
So, the Holy Trinity is united by Spirit as Jesus Christ has a Spiritual Body which can turn into Spirit completely. Before the Incarnation, Jesus Christ was Spirit and in the Old Testament (like Genesis), Jesus Christ, our Lord, may materialize and walk to Adam and Eve (if He desired).
Regarding Jesus Christ made Man, His Spiritual Body may become a (physical) Fetus or a DNA and the Holy Spirit made it to be a Physical One that cannot be changed back to spirit until the Resurrection. So, Jesus Christ was made Man in that sense and Jesus Christ lowered Himself with a Physical Body instead of a Spiritual Body. That Physical Body is then attached to the womb of Mary.
We have also the Eucharistic miracles in which part of Jesus Christ's Spiritual Body turns into materialized Flesh.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Best Regards,
Robert |
Bob replied:
|
Dear Robert,
Thanks for your question.
Jesus Christ did not have a "body" of any sort, spiritual or material, before the Incarnation.
He is the second person of the Holy Trinity, a divine Person who is fully God, having no parts, no division in substance with the Father and Holy Ghost, and yet is distinct as the Son. This can be more fully explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you would like to learn more please refer to the CCC.
Peace,
Bob Kirby
|
Robert replied:
|
Dear Bob,
Thanks for the reply and the 900+ pages of Catechism.
I cannot find anything that says Jesus Christ does not have a spiritual body in the Catechism.
The only mention about a body is the Body that Jesus Christ got after the Resurrection (I also searched for the Holy Trinity). And if Jesus Christ has a Spiritual Body, it does not contradict the Holy Trinity because the spiritual body can become completely spiritual so Jesus Christ being a Spirit before the Incarnation is possible. So, you can think of Jesus Christ (the spirit), the Father and the Holy spirit are one God but three distinct Personhoods.
- Where does the Catechism explicitly say that Jesus Christ has no parts before the Incarnation?
And, whether Jesus Christ has any parts, does not affect the belief: Jesus Christ is a Spirit with a Spiritual Body. I am therefore lost in your objection.
My view is, before the Incarnation: Jesus Christ is normally a spirit (with a spiritual body), and the spiritual body can become materialized if desired.
After the Incarnation and before the Resurrection: Jesus Christ has a material body, soul, and spirit (God-like)
After the Resurrection: Jesus Christ can become spirit (with a spiritual body), and the spiritual body can materialize if desired.
Now, a spirit with a spiritual body is just spirit. So, the spiritual body may not be considered as some kind of distinct part of the spirit. The spiritual body may not be some separable component of the spirit, but the spiritual body is there in the spirit. |
Looking forward to your further objections.
Thank you,
Robert |
Mike replied:
|
Dear Robert,
Our website is not a debating site.
See #4 and #5 under:
We don't reply with objections; we reply with Catholic answers. You are welcome to believe what you want to believe but we are faithful Catholics who strive to give answers that are faithful to the Church Jesus founded on Peter in 33 A.D.
Your answers appear to be saying, "If you show me exactly what I want in the Catechism or the Bible, I will believe it."
As faithful Catholics we have all the Word of God both in Writing (the Scriptures) and in an Oral Tradition, which has been passed down to us since 33 A.D.
Two of my best Apologists answered your question, and you don't seem to be satisfied. Again, this is not a debating website or a site you can come back to and say, "I GOT YOU!" We are not going to reply to e-mails that appear to fall in this category or any other category on the "Questions we won't answer" page so don't waste your time typing an e-mail that won't get replied to.
Mike
Web Admin of
AskACatholic.com and
HelpersOfTheHolySouls.com
Feedback from e-mails. |
Robert replied:
|
Hi Mike,
Thank you for your explanation.
- I just want to know if believing that Jesus Christ had a spiritual body before His Incarnation was a heresy in the Catholic Church.
By spiritual body, I mean:
- something that can be turned into a complete spirit, or
- can be materialized into a body.
I don't see that this has any contradiction to the Holy Trinity.
- I can't find this in the Catechism so where can I turn to ask?
Best Regards,
Robert |
Eric replied:
|
Robert,
Yes, it is a heresy.
The Catechism is not intended to be exhaustive; it is a teaching and catechetical tool, not an infallible systematic exposition of the faith. The faith is much, much deeper than the Catechism.
Your error seems to be the error of the heretic Apollinarius in the Early Church.
Pope Damasus requested a statement of faith from a presbyter name Vitalis, who was a follower of Apollinarius, which is probably that preserved by Cyril of Alexandria.
Furthermore, concerning the economy according to the flesh of the Savior, we believe that, remaining unaltered and unchanged, God, the Word, underwent the fleshing (τὴν σάρκωσιν) for the renewal of humanity.
Being truly Son of God, according to the eternal birth from God, he also became son of man, according to the birth from a virgin, and is one and the same: perfect God, according to divinity and consubstantial with the Father, and the same perfect man, according to his birth from a virgin and consubstantial with men according to the flesh.
- "If someone says that Christ had his body from heaven" or is consubstantial with God according to the flesh, he is anathema.
- If someone does not confess that the flesh of the Lord from the holy Virgin is consubstantial with men, he is anathema.
- If someone says that our Lord and Savior, born, according to the flesh, from the Spirit and Mary the Virgin, is without soul or feeling or reason or mind, he is anathema.
- If someone dares to say that Christ suffered in divinity and not in flesh, as it is written (cf. 1 Peter 4:1), he is anathema.
- If someone divides and separates our Lord and Savior and says that God the Son and Word is one [thing] and the assumed man another, and does not confess [Him as] one and the same, he is anathema.
The Formation of Christian Theology by John Behr, The Nicene Faith, Parts 1 and 2, Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 2004), II, 383–84. |
Apollinarius taught:
God is incarnate from the beginning, and thus the visible and tangible body that was born in the last days, that, by human food, grew in gradual increments, that one, is the one that existed before all beings, that made human beings and all creation, visible and invisible, that feels weariness and accepts the experience of death with distress.
Behr, John, The Nicene Faith, Part 1 & 2, The Formation of Christian Theology by John Behr, The Nicene Faith, Parts 1 and 2, Crestwood, NY: St Vlad (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 2004), II, 393. |
Eric
|
Robert replied:
|
Thanks, Eric —
But I do not think my suggestion is similar to Apollinarius heresy. I think you have a misunderstanding of what I am saying.
- First, Apollinarius says that Jesus Christ has a material body even before the Incarnation. I am not saying that I am saying Jesus Christ is a spirit (somewhere there is the spiritual body in the spirit) before the Incarnation and that His spirit can be materialized into a body.
- Second, Apollinarius says that his mind is divine.
I am saying that after the Incarnation and before the Resurrection, Jesus Christ has a material body, a soul and a God-like Spirit but His Mind is not divine unlike Apollinarius, but Jesus Christ's nature is both human and divine because at that time Jesus Christ has a God-like spirit, so He is divine and He has a Body, Soul and Spirit like a human.
I am not trying to argue here but to clarify what I meant and whether what I meant is a heresy not by just looking at the word "body".
Thanks,
Robert Luk |
Robert followed up later:
|
Eric,
Another point you made by Pope Damasus:
If someone says that Christ had his body from Heaven or is consubstantial with God according to the flesh, he is anathema.
I think the Pope is talking about the material body because he says that if Christ is consubstantial God according to the "flesh", but I am not talking about a material body or the "flesh".
I am talking about a spiritual body, the one that Jesus Christ has after the Resurrection in which he appears sometimes like a spirit and also sometimes like real flesh and bone. If the Pope says that "His Body" means spiritual body, then Jesus Christ, after the Resurrection, cannot be consubstantial with God because, after the Resurrection, Jesus Christ had a spiritual body inferred by Paul in 1 Corinthians. That does not seem to make sense to me.
I am just trying to clarify the concept of a spiritual body.
Thanks,
Robert |
Paul replied:
|
Robert,
Jesus has a glorified body since his earthly body had been risen and glorified. He is eternally consubstantial with the Father in His Divine Nature.
There is nothing in divine Revelation or human reason that indicates His glorified spiritualized body existed before the Incarnation.
Paul |
Robert replied:
|
Dear Paul,
Thank you.
Is it also the case that there is "nothing" in divine Revelation or human reason that indicates His glorified spiritualized body did not exist before the Incarnation.
You said:
He is eternally consubstantial with the Father in His Divine Nature.
- Then, how can He be consubstantial (of the same substance or essence) with the Father if Jesus Christ is also Human (as well as divine) after the Incarnation and before the Resurrection?
- Or, are you saying that if we just focused on His Divine Nature, then He is consubstantial with the Father excluding His Human Nature?
Actually, in the Old Testament (like Genesis 3:8 and Genesis 18:1-8), there are places that suggest Our Lord (Jesus Christ) has a (spiritual) body.
Best Regards,
Robert |
Paul replied:
|
Robert,
The divine Second Person of the Trinity distinct from His Human Nature always existed as one in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. We also know the Second Person took on a Human Nature in time (around 2,000 years ago), and this Human Nature was glorified after His Death and Resurrection.
How all that works out within God's "eternal now" is a mystery beyond our finite human comprehension.
As for your first question, from our temporal perspective, it seems not to correspond with reason that Jesus' Glorified, Spiritual Body existed before the Incarnation — since the second Person of the Trinity didn't have a body, before the Incarnation.
Paul |
Robert replied:
|
Hi Paul,
Thank you for the indications.
You said:
The divine Second Person of the Trinity distinct from His Human Nature always existed as one in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. We also know the Second Person took on a Human Nature in time (around 2,000 years ago), and this Human Nature was glorified after His Death and Resurrection.
How all that works out within God's "eternal now" is a mystery beyond our finite human comprehension.
You are calling this a mystery however, I just cannot see how Jesus Christ can be consubstantial with the Father, after the Incarnation but before the Resurrection, if consubstantial means the substance and essence of the whole of Jesus Christ is the same as the Father — since Jesus Christ has flesh and bone then but the Father is only spirit.
My interpretation is that Jesus Christ is a Human so He has a Body, Soul and Spirit. For Jesus Christ, He has a God-like Spirit then, so He is consubstantial to the Father in this sense. In this case, Jesus Christ then is not wholly consubstantial with the Father but His spirit is.
If that is the case, then it is possible that Jesus Christ, before the Incarnation and after the Resurrection, is consubstantial with the Father in spirit but the Body is the extra bits hanging around.
In fact, if after the Resurrection (as Eric interpreted it), Jesus Christ Spiritual Body is physical, then again Jesus Christ as a whole, after the Resurrection, cannot be consubstantial with the Father since Jesus Christ, after the Resurrection, has a Body but, the Father, is only Spirit.
That is why I do not subscribe to the understanding that consubstantial means the whole of Jesus Christ but only His Spirit or that the Spiritual Body can be completely Spirit.
You said:
As for your first question, from our temporal perspective, it seems not to correspond with reason that Jesus' Glorified, Spiritual Body existed before the Incarnation — since the second Person of the Trinity didn't have a body, before the Incarnation.
However, you are using your assumption, that the Second Person got to be a Spirit, to justify why He does not have a Spiritual Body before the Incarnation.
Again, if that is really the case, we have problems with interpreting that the whole of Jesus Christ is consubstantial with the Father (without allowing the Spiritual Body to become completely Spirit) since Jesus Christ, after the Incarnation, has a Body.
You are calling this a mystery however, I think the fact that the spiritual body can become completely spirit or can be materialized, is the mystery instead of being consubstantial in whole, because this can explain some Old Testaments like Genesis 3. For example, why the Lord seemed to have a Body, instead of making a lengthy set of interpretations from the Old Testaments that say these are all apparitions — which the Bible never said they were.
Best Regards,
Robert Luk |
Paul replied:
|
Robert,
St. Thomas Aquinas states:
The divine nature of Jesus is consubstantial with the Father, from whom He is eternally begotten. His human nature is created and assumed onto the second divine Person of the Trinity, but is not eternally consubstantial in itself with the Father.
Even though St. Paul's words about the resurrected body are often interpreted in English as "spiritual body", he most probably means spiritualized body. Pure spirits have no body. "Immaterial matter" is a self-contradiction, or oxymoron.
So like Jesus' Resurrected Body, so too, will the saved be resurrected — with a spiritualized glorified body, which, one would surmise, retains some form of materiality.
the Incarnation, the Eternal Son had no human nature, i.e. no body. After Jesus' Resurrection, the Son's Human nature is glorified.
This is the data of divine Revelation.
Paul
[Related Article] |
Robert replied:
|
Many thanks for all the time, patience, and effort both you, Bob, and Mike put into answering my questions.
We may agree or disagree on certain aspects of Christianity, but at least I understand the Catholic Christian viewpoints on my original set of questions.
Many thanks for the many replies.
Robert Luk
|
|
|
