Stefan P. wrote: |
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Hi, guys —
I am looking for Early Church fathers who have talked about (the Spirit of Christ) and (the Spirit of Christ as the Holy Spirit).
- Do you know of any Early Church fathers who have written about this topic?
- Maybe John Chrysostom, Basil, or someone else who has wrote about this?
I am also trying to find a debate dialogue between patriarch “Photios” and the Catholics, about the “filioque”, since I think that the Catholic side, may have mentioned something about the Spirit of Christ, to defend the “filioque”.
- Do you know what was the side of the Orthodox Church back then, about the Spirit of Christ, and
- whether they said something about it in combination to the “filioque”?
- Are there some writings, that can prove that the Orthodox accepted the Spirit of Christ to be the Holy Spirit . . . maybe patriarch Photios?
Regards,
Stefan P.
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| { Do you know of any Early Church fathers who have written about this topic or debated this issue? } |
Eric replied:
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Stefan,
Here are some quotes, none of which I could find from St. John Chrysostom. or St. Basil:
That the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and at the same time the Holy Spirit: “You, in truth, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. But if Christ is in you, the body, it is true, is dead by reason of sin, but the spirit is life by reason of justice. But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, then he who raised Christ from the dead will also bring to life your mortal bodies through that Spirit who dwells in you.” The whole force of the mystery is in Baptism, his power in the receiving of the Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit. Since this is so, it was said: “You are in the Spirit,” that is, that whom the Holy Spirit gave you. Who is this Spirit? He added: “If nevertheless the Spirit of God dwells in you.” Who is this? “But whoever has not the Spirit of Christ.” Therefore the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same. In this text it also should be clearly recognized that the Spirit of Christ is the same thing as Christ himself. For there follows: “But if Christ is in you.” Whence also the Spirit of God is God. Therefore there is only one substance because there is the same Spirit, but the same in three; therefore, they are homoousion (consubstantial). Whence the substance is not similar, because it is the same Spirit. Yet because there is one Spirit, it does not follow that the same passions are also in the Father. For only in two of them are there, as it were, passions, because they are Spirits who have already proceeded. (18) But this will be treated more fully later.
Victorinus, Marius, Against Arius, First Book, Part A, II.3.A, Theological Treatises on the Trinity, ed. by Hermigild Dressler, trans. by Mary T. Clark, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1981), LXIX, 112–13 |
Question:
Whom, then, does the baptized person mystically receive? Christ, or the Holy Spirit?
Sometimes you have said that Christ dwells within the baptized, while at other times you have said it is the Holy Spirit.
Answer:
We receive the Holy Spirit through baptism, but since the Holy Spirit is also called “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ,” we receive through the Spirit both the Father and the Son.
Mark the Monk, Volume 2, Chapter 4, Part 2, 6th question, Counsels on the Spiritual Life, ed. by John Behr, trans. by Tim Vivian and Augustine Casiday, Popular Patristics Series (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2009), I & II, 309–10 |
For, Christ dwells in us, and while Christ dwells God dwells. And since the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, still, while the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, no other Spirit dwells except the Spirit of God. If we realize that Christ is in us through the Holy Spirit, we still recognize that the latter is just as much the Spirit of God as the Spirit of Christ. And, since the nature itself dwells in us through the nature of the thing, we must believe that the nature of the Son does not differ from that of the Father, since the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God, is made known as the thing of one nature.
St. Hilary, On the Trinity 8.26, Hilary of Poitiers, The Trinity, ed. by Roy Joseph Deferrari, trans. by Stephen McKenna, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1954), XXV, 295 |
That you may know that the Spirit of God is the same as is the Holy Spirit, as we also read in the Apostle: ‘No man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith anathema to Jesus. And no man can say, the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost,’ the Apostle called Him the Spirit of God. He called Him also the Spirit of Christ, as you have it: ‘But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.’ And below: ‘And if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you.’ He Himself, then, is the Spirit of God, who is the Spirit of Christ.
Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit 1.4.56, Ambrose of Milan, Saint Ambrose: Theological and Dogmatic Works, ed. by Roy Joseph Deferrari, trans. by Roy J. Deferrari, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1963), XLIV, 56 |
Then what said the Apostle to thee, as was read the day before yesterday? Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord. There are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. All, says he, God worketh. These words, too, were read of the Spirit of God: one and the same Spirit dividing to each as He wills. Hearken to the Scripture saying that the Spirit divides according to His own will, not in obedience to others. So then the Spirit divides to you grace as He wills, not as He is bidden, and chiefly so because He is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ. And hold fast this, that He is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit the Paraclete.
Ambrose, The Sacraments 6.2.9, Ambrose of Milan, “On the Mysteries” and the Treatise “On the Sacraments,” ed. by J. H. Srawley and C. L. Feltoe, trans. by T. Thompson, Translations of Christian Literature. Series III, Liturgical Texts (London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1919), pp. 131–32 |
After I had written down the commandments and similitudes of the Shepherd, the angel of repentance, he came to me and said, “I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the Church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God.
The Shepherd of Hermas, Similitude IX, i, Roberts, Alexander, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., “The Pastor of Hermas,” in Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire), trans. by F. Crombie, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), II, 43 |
In the epistle of Peter there is further proof that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ: he says that the Prophets whom he mentioned above investigated and inquired into what time or which circumstance was being indicated by him who was the Spirit of Christ in them, when he was bearing witness to the sufferings reserved for Christ and the things decreed to follow after; it was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but us in those things which have now been announced to you through the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:11–12).187. The Holy Spirit just mentioned is also called the Spirit of God, not only in the present text, but also in many other passages, such as: No one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11). 188. Then, following the passage which says: But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9b), it is added: But if Christ is in you. (Romans 8:10a) This demonstrates most clearly that the Holy Spirit is inseparable from Christ because wherever the Holy Spirit is, there also is Christ, and from wherever the Spirit of Christ departs, Christ also withdraws from that place.
Didymus the Blind: On the Holy Spirit, Part V, 3.186, Athanasius and Didymus, Works on the Spirit: Athanasius’s Letters to Serapion on the Holy Spirit, And, Didymus’s on the Holy Spirit, ed. by John Behr, trans. by Mark DelCogliano, Andrew Radde-Gallwitz, and Lewis Ayres, Popular Patristics Series (Yonkers, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2011), XLIII, 200 |
Eric
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Eric followed up later:
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Stefan,
I forgot to address your question on Photios. I'm afraid I do not have a lot of primary sources on Photius. However, I asked <An Anonymous App (AAA)> and it offered a little bit of insight:
In Photius of Constantinople's discussions of the Filioque controversy, he addresses the phrase "Spirit of Christ" in his work "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit." Photius argues that when Scripture refers to the "Spirit of Christ," it is not describing the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, but rather the Spirit's role in anointing Christ.
Specifically, Photius states:
"When Scripture speaks of the 'Spirit of Christ', it is not referring to procession but to the Spirit having anointed Christ."
This interpretation is part of Photius's broader argument against the Filioque clause, which he saw as a deviation from the traditional Orthodox understanding of the Trinity.
Photius maintained that the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit is "from the Father alone," and he applied the concept of "through the Son" only to the temporal mission of the Holy Spirit, not to its eternal origin. This distinction was crucial in his critique of the Latin church's addition of the Filioque to the Nicene Creed.
It's important to note that Photius's works, particularly the "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit," form the foundation for much of the subsequent Eastern Orthodox theology regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit and the critique of the Filioque doctrine. |
Eric
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Stefan replied:
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Eric,
Thank you very much for your answers and time, I really appreciate it.
I will look at them more in details. I hope that God will guide you through life and ensure that you don't fall into the traps.
Аpart from this topic, I am researching and finding that some pagan elements have been added through the centuries. Even ancient churches had pagan decorations, before they became Christian.
From God, I read:
15 8 "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."
(Matthew 15:8) |
15 13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
(Matthew 15:13-14). |
7 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
(Matthew 7:22-24) |
6 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. 49 But he who hears and does not do, them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”
(Luke 6:46-49) |
8 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.
(John 8:51) |
17 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
(John 17:17) |
15 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
(John 15:3) |
15 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
(John 15:22) |
12 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
(John 12:48) |
7 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
(Matthew 7:14-20) |
10 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep."
(John 10:7) |
14 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6) |
15 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
(John 15:15) |
20 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you.
27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
(Acts 20:26-30) |
2 Peter 2 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
(2 Peter 2:1-2) |
“About the queen of Heaven.”
So far as I understand, Epiphanius of Salamis talked against this doctrine for calling Saint Mary, “queen of Heaven”, so it may mean that it was not accepted at his time globally in the fifth century, and it is more likely not from the Apostles.
From what I read, the holidays of Saint Mary were added later in the seventh century. Most of the holidays were established after the fourth century. Some of them may have had a pagan influence, some of them may have already had pagan holidays, but just Christianized them, so a Christian holiday will be on the same date as the pagan holiday before they got Christianized.
14 5 One man esteemed one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regarded the day, regarded it unto the Lord; and he that regarded not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
(Romans 14:5-8) |
Such women should be silenced by Jeremiah, and not frighten the world. They must not say,
“We honor the queen of heaven.” (Jerimiah 44:17), also read:
Thank you again.
Regards.
Stefan
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Eric replied:
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Hi Stefan,
Thanks for bringing up this point, and thanks for the reference. it's really helpful as I do not have this work.
Let's look at the text in context: (Pages 643-663)
(7, 5) Again, where has this coiled serpent come from? How are its crooked counsels renewed? Mary should be honored, but the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit should be worshiped; no one should worship Mary. There is no commandment to < offer > the Eucharist even to a man, < as though > to God, let alone to a woman; not even angels are allowed such glory. . .
(8, 1) But again, these women are “renewing the potion for Fortune and preparing the table for the demon and not for God, as the Scripture says. And they drink impious drinks as the word of God says, “And the women grind flour, and their sons gather wood to make cakes for the host of heaven.” (2) Such women should be silenced by Jeremiah, and not frighten the world. They must not say, “We honor the queen of heaven.” Taphnes knows how they must be punished; the places in Magdula know how to receive their bodies for the moth. Do not obey a woman, Israel; rise above a woman’s evil counsel. “A woman snares men’s precious souls.” “Her feet bring those who use her with death to hades.” (3) “Heed not a worthless woman. Honey drops from the lips of an harlot, who anointed thy throat for a time; but afterwards shall thou find her more bitter than gall, and sharper than a two-edged sword.” (7,5; 8,1) |
This is the only reference I found in the work to "Queen of Heaven". It's in a section against the Collyridians; the translator's preface discusses this, listing those Epiphanius is refuting:
"Collyridians, who offer a loaf in the name of this same Mary on a certain set day of the year. I have given them a name to correspond with their practice and called them Collyridians."
The Collyridians, as he and Epiphanius show, offered bread as a sacrifice to Mary, which neither the Catholics nor the Orthodox do.
It seems the Collyridians were justifying their error by claiming, "We honor the queen of heaven." Epiphanius is not denying this title. He is simply saying that this does not justify offering bread as a sacrifice to her.
Why do we call Mary the Queen of Heaven? Even if it is true this title is not found in early patristic works, this is the fruit of centuries of meditation and reflection on the Sacred Scriptures. We see the reference in Psalm 45:9 to the Queen standing at the right hand of the Messiah, who intercedes for people (v. 12), who makes her sons princes (v. 16, cf. Revelation 12:17), and whose name will be celebrated in all generations (cf. Luke 1:48). This is consistent with Israelite and Near Eastern practice; because kings were often polygamous, they reckoned their mothers, not their wives, as their queen (cf. Jeremiah 13:18, 1 Kings 2:19). There is even a special word for it; according to <An Anonymous App (AAA)>:
Gebirah (Hebrew: גְּבִירָה) means "great lady" or "queen mother." In the context of ancient Israel and the Near East, the gebirah was the mother of the reigning king and held a position of significant influence and honor. She often had political clout and a ceremonial role in court life.
This concept shows up in the Bible as well—for example, Bathsheba, the mother of King Solomon, is treated as gebirah in 1 Kings 2:19, where Solomon rises to greet her and has a throne brought for her at his right hand.
Theologically, some Christian traditions (especially Catholicism) see this as a typological foreshadowing of Mary, the mother of Jesus, being honored as Queen of Heaven. |
We also see in Revelation 12 that the mother of the Messiah (verse 5) appears in "heaven" and has a "crown" of twelve stars (verse 1). This certainly suggests a queen, even a "Queen of Heaven". Given that Daniel 4:37 refers to Yahweh as the "king of heaven", it only makes sense, by analogy, to refer to Mary as "queen of heaven", even if there are similarities there with other Near Eastern religions.
- Does this allay your concerns?
Eric
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Stefan replied:
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Eric,
Thanks for the reply. I checked with the comments on Psalm 45 — John Chrysostom, Basil, and others before the fifth century and they say that this is the Church. I did not see any one mentioning Saint Mary.
There is more from Epiphanius in this book. I don't have time right now to find it but if I find something I will send it to you.
If I have understood correctly, Epiphanius is also against the date of December 25th for Christmas; he is favoring January 6th instead but both dates are strangely birthdays of pagan deities. “Sol Invictus” and “Aion” from “Kore”. From this what I read there are also other holidays that overlap old pagan festivals on the same dates, that is also strange.
I have been looking at old church mosaics and ruins from the fourth, fifth, and sixth century and compared them with pagan mosaics. Many are almost the same, both pagan and the ones in the churches, have the same ornaments, equal-sided crosses, and similar styles.
My background is Orthodox, but together with a person I know, with the help of God, we saw inconsistencies and changes in the faith. The person I know, sticks to the seven ecumenical councils while I continue to research them down to the Apostles.
What I found out and understood is that the Gospel is the truth, the word of God.
If we do everything as God has commanded in the Gospel with His help, He will save us. This is His promise. (John 8:51)
Everything that is not commanded by God or the Apostles is potentially dangerous. If it is not from God, we will be eradicated. (Matthew 15:13)
If a country has a law, and someone breaks it, he is judged, because this law is written, and the judge looks at the law to judge. If another person is judged but, for what he is judged, is not written in the law, he can’t be judged, but is released, because it is not written in the law.
These traditions are not written in the law of God, and are not commanded to be done in Scripture. If these traditions end up being added later by the false prophets: false teachers that God (and the Apostles too) have talked about, then this will lead to death, according to the Word of God. (Matthew 15:13, Matthew 7:19)
"Narrow is the way — and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14)
The next sentence is — "Beware of false prophets." (Matthew 7:15)
So, the way may be narrow because of the false prophets. The flock is small. (Luke 12:32)
God our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth - the way and the gate. (John 14:6, John 10:9)
The Gospel is the word of God, the word of God will save us. (John 1:14)
If we do as God has commanded in the Gospel and the Apostles, God will save us.
Regards,
Stefan
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