Hi Jason —
Thanks for your question.
I admire your dedication to the
orthodox Catholic life.
Depending on the open-mindedness of your friend, you may or may not be
able to answer him.
My assumption is that your dissenting friend considers
himself a catholic.
I have talked for hours with people who say they are catholic,
but deny the authority of St. Peter in the person of Pope St. Paul VI, who
promulgated the Novus Ordo Mass for the faithful.
What it boils down to is refusing to accept the Church's judgment on what is a valid, and invalid, form or worship: the Mass. In this case, to the best of my knowledge, it is the application of a doctrine that's in dispute, not a doctrine itself. As faithful Catholics, we trust the Church's judgment on what is and is not a valid Mass. If your friend does not trust this judgment, he is a schismatic.
Sadly, some, like your friend, believe the only valid Mass on the face of the earth is the Tridentine or Extraordinary form of the Mass. Before the Council of Trent, many clergy were taking liberties and changing parts of the Mass they shouldn't have been changing. The Council of Trent codified the Tridentine Mass, as the standard that was to be used. Their desire to go back to the Council of Trent, satisfies their personal desire for a valid Mass. They don't trust the Church's authority to determine what is, and is not, valid, so they choose what is valid. Seeing the very first Mass was not said in Latin but probably in Aramaic or Greek, my question to them is:
- If Pope St. Pius X had the authority to codify the Tridentine Mass, why don't you give
Pope St. Paul VI the same authority to create a new Mass for the faithful?
The Church's authority to make such judgments can be found in the following Scripture passages. Here we find support for the authority of St. Peter, his
successors and the Church founded
by Jesus Himself!!
We believe Jesus has bound
himself to the Church He founded. For short:
- He found it, He bound it!
- The Church's choice is Jesus' choice.
- The Church's stance is Jesus' stance.
- The Church's Ordinary form of the Mass is Jesus' Ordinary form of the Mass
(Novus Ordo)
- The Church's Extraordinary form of the Mass is Jesus' Extraordinary form of the Mass (Tridentine or Latin)
We can say this with confidence because, again, we trust the Church to tell us what is, and is not a valid Mass. In the process of doing this, both Pope St. John Paul II and Pope [Emeritus] Benedict XVI have told the faithful they should never politicize one form of the Mass over another.
Questions I would ask:
Do you believe and obey the words of Jesus when he says:
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven."
Matthew 16:17-19 |
If his answer is No, he's not an obeying Christian. Practicing Catholics
strive to obey all of what Jesus, through His Church, wants us
to believe.
Sadly, there are some religious orders who set extremely poor examples for lay Catholics who are trying to learn more about the faith. Whenever there is contention between:
- what the Church states and
- what any religious friend says, even if they are from a religious order recognized by the Church
. . .
we are obliged to listen to the Church at the cost of our friendship.
There can be a type of gnosticism in these Catholic religious orders where it appears only they have a hidden knowledge of the correct way of doing things; a way the rest of the Church is not aware of. This is all rooted in pride.
He is probably going to quote the Council of Trent, and pull
the text from various sessions and paragraphs out of context. These dissenting catholics or (CINOs) use documents
from our holy councils, the same way non-Catholic
Christians use the Bible. They will pick and choose, (this is where we get the word heresy from), what they want to believe, instead of
what the Church and Our Lord wants them to believe.
They call themselves catholic, yet dissent from Church authority and sometimes its teachings. They would claim:
This last statement is laughable. They are evaluating the Holy Spirit!
Why? Because they believe they have the same authority as the Holy
Spirit.
Some even believe the Chair of St. Peter has been empty for the past six
or so papacies. This is their justification for going back to Trent. Just
say away from these people! They may be baptized Catholics, but
they have broken their bond of unity with the Church. They are no different
than Protestants. Some will constantly encourage
you to debate them.
- Why?
<Because they, themselves, are insecure in calling
themselves, Catholic!>
Jesus did not give us a brain to leave at the foot of our doorway before
going to work. He gave us a brain to use 24 hours a day! Tell your friend to try using it.
These last two lines may be too harsh. It depends on how much he knows about
the Church.
The dissenting catholics I have known, should know better.
Andrew, one of my colleagues, has answered your question
indirectly in several answers he has given. If you search the rest of the knowledge base, you should be able to find them.
Your brother in prayer, your brother in Christ,
Mike Humphrey
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