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I'm 16 and thinking of converting to Catholicism,
however there are a few things I haven't yet
worked out. I was raised Baptist and was always
taught to pray directly to God.
The thought of the intercession of the saints
and Mary confuses me, because I don't really
see their usefulness when I can pray directly
to God.
Also, there is a passage in the Bible
that condemns talking to the dead, and
I was wondering if that would fall under
this category.
I would really appreciate your help!
Thank you for your time.
Ashley
{ Can you explain to a Baptist, thinking about converting, the value of praying to Mary & the saints? }
Eric
replied:
Hi Ashley,
Thanks for your question.
As I am sure you know, a Catholic
Christian can, and indeed very much
should, pray directly to God. Virtually
the whole liturgy is directed toward
the Holy Trinity. Christ came to
reconcile us to the Father, so that
we could become friends of
God like Abraham; and sons
and daughters of God in an intimate
relationship with God our Father
and Christ our brother.
Now you asked, why should we ask the
intercession of the saints when we
can pray
directly to God?
I am glad, by the way, that you
understand it accurately as requesting
the saints to pray for us; we
don't believe in them as if they
were 'demigods' of any sort. Well,
the answer is simple:
"14 Is any among you sick? Let
him call for the elders of the
church, and let them pray over
him, anointing him with oil in
the name of the Lord; 15 and the
prayer of faith will save the
sick man, ... 16 Therefore confess
your sins to one another, and
pray for one another, that you
may be healed. The prayer of a
righteous man is powerful and
effective."
In other words, since not every believer
possesses the same degree of righteousness
and not every believer has faith
in equal measure, the prayers of
a more righteous believer with a
greater degree of faith are more
effective than our own prayers and which
believers are more righteous, and
have more faith, than those who see
the Lord face to face?
Considered another way, even Baptists
ask their fellow church members to
pray for them.
Paul asked others to pray for him. Read:
It is no different
with Catholics. We ask our fellow
church members to pray for us as
well, only we also consider those
who are now with the Lord.
A good illustration of our belief
in this matter is a section of the
Confiteor we pray during the liturgy:
"... and I ask blessed Mary
ever virgin, all the angels and
saints, and you,
my brothers and sisters, to pray
for me to the Lord our God."
We are simply asking the Saints in
Heaven to do the same thing we ask
of the saints on earth (i.e.
holy ones) to pray
for us. (cf. CCC
823 of the Catechism)
823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 39; cf. Ephesians 5:25-26) The Church, then, is the holy People of God, (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 12) and her members are called saints. (Acts 9:13; 1 Corinthians 6:1; 16:1)
We believe that through faith, we
are all one:
believers in Heaven
believers on Earth, and
believers
undergoing final purification
— bound
together in what we call the
Communion of Saints. Let's
turn to Revelation 4 - 5.
Here we see an image of the Heavenly
Liturgy: the worship going on in
Heaven right now, which we enter
into ourselves when we celebrate
the divine and sacred Liturgy, patterned
after Revelation 5. Here we have
the awesome Seraphim always praising
and worshipping the enthroned Father
and the Lamb. The Lamb Himself is looking
as if he had been slain — which
means that in the Holy Liturgy of
the Eucharist, we are making present
the one sacrifice of Calvary, that
is, the flesh of the sacrificed Paschal
Lamb. The fact that this is the sacrifice
is clear since there is an altar
(cf. Revelation 6:9), under which are the martyrs
— this is why it is a Catholic
and Orthodox custom to put the bones
of martyrs under our earthly altars,
as a pattern of the Heavenly Altar.
Clearly, in the mystical imagery
of Revelation, the Lamb's sacrifice
is an eternal reality, not a past
event. But let's go on. There are
the seven torches of fire, the seven
spirits of God; these are represented
by candles in the Holy Liturgy. Finally,
there are the twenty four elders
— the Twelve Patriarchs and
the Twelve Apostles.
And what are these elders, who
symbolize all the Saints in glory,
doing?
They are carrying golden bowls
full of incense, which are the prayers of the Saints.
The Elders are offering the prayers
of all the holy ones to the One seated
on the throne.
Clearly then, the Saints in glory
are involved in our prayer: it is
not merely a private matter between
us and God, for God's Bride, the Church,
is also involved!
In Hebrews, Paul gives us another
awe-inspiring image of the Holy Liturgy
("acceptable worship, [done]
with reverence and awe" — 12:28):
"You
have come to Mount Zion and to the
city of the living God, the heavenly
Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22|In context: Hebrews 12:22-28)
— that is,
the Church, the city set on a mountain (Hebrews 11:10, Matthew 5:14) — "and
to innumerable angels in festal gathering" — gathered
with the earthly church as we celebrate
and worship — "and to
the assembly of the first-born who
are enrolled in heaven," — that
is, the Saints who have gone before — "and
to a judge who is Lord of all, and
to the spirits of just men made perfect" — the
saints in glory again — "and
to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkled blood that speaks
more graciously than the blood of
Abel." That is, the Blood of
the Covenant, the Eucharist.
Note the parallel with Revelation 5: the twenty four elders
(the Patriarchs and the Apostles),
the Seraphim and other angels,
the Great White Throne of the
Father, the altar of God (Revelation 6:9)
where the "Lamb looking as
if it had been slain" is
being worshipped. The slain Lamb
and the altar are, of course,
the one sacrifice of Christ on
the Cross, which transcends all
time and which we enter into through
the Eucharist. For Revelation 5 is nothing less than what I
have identified the imagery in
Hebrews as, that is, the Holy
Liturgy in Heaven, and when we
celebrate the Holy Liturgy on
earth, we are mystically present
at that very same heavenly worship — with
the saints, with again the "myriads
of angels" (Revelation 5:11),
with the Father, and, most of
all, partaking from the altar
of God the flesh and blood of
the slain Passover Lamb. For,
as it says just beyond this in
Hebrews, "we have an altar
of which those serving the tabernacle
have no right to eat" (Hebrews 13:10),
that is to say, we eat from this
altar in Heaven when we celebrate
the Eucharist. "Christ our
Passover was sacrificed for us.
Therefore let us keep the feast," for
children "share in flesh
and blood" (Hebrews 2:14).
My point being, both here in Hebrews
and in Revelation, we see that
the holy ones in glory are present
with us in our worship.
But they are not only present with
us during the Holy Liturgy. Earlier,
in Chapter 11, Paul offers models
of faith from the Old Testament Saints,
especially noting how they were made
righteous by their faith working
in obedience. In Hebrews 11:10, we see that
the Saints looked forward to the
city built by God, that is, the "city
set on a mountain that cannot be
hidden" (Matthew 5:14).
This city is the Church of Christ,
built on Mount Zion: it cannot be
hidden, that is to say, it is not
invisible, but is rather a visible
city. Like Christ himself, who has
both a divine and a human nature,
His Body has both a divine and unseen
nature, and a human and incarnate
nature.
Thus the Church is not merely the
collection of all faithful believers
in Christ, it is a city, with government
and visible bonds of unity. Paul
makes an amazing statement after
going through the list of faithful
Old Testament Saints in Hebrews.
He says of them in Hebrews 11:39:
"These were all commended
for their faith, yet none of them
received what had been promised.
God had planned something better
for us so that only together with
us would they be made perfect."
Only together with us would they
be made perfect and only together
with God's New Covenant People of
God can we be made perfect! Our sanctification
(literally "sanctification", — our
being made saints) depends on one
another! In Hebrews 12:1, he says,
"Therefore, since we are
surrounded by so great a cloud
of witnesses . . ."
The
Old Testament Saints. <Surrounded
by a cloud of them?>
Yes! — the Holy Saints of God
are present with us even now, not
only present, but surrounding us,
encouraging us as it were in our
race which has been set before us
and, I dare say, assisting us — for
what other reason do they surround
us?
The early Fathers certainly believed
in the Communion of Saints, as it
is called in the Apostle's Creed:
"You say in your book that
while we live we are able to pray
for each other, but afterwards
when we have died, the prayer
of no person for another can be
heard; and this is especially
clear since the martyrs, though
they cry for vengeance for their
own blood, have never been able
to obtain their request. But if
the Apostles and martyrs while
still in the body can pray for
others, at a time when they ought
still be solicitous about themselves,
how much more will they do so
after their crowns, victories,
and triumphs?"
This also explains the difference
between asking the Saints for their
prayers, and necromancy: talking
to the dead.
First of all, necromancy has more
of the sense of fortune-telling than
merely addressing the dead; in other
words, what God forbids in necromancy
is seeking a (verbal) response from
the dead, not addressing requests
for prayer to them.
Second of all, since according to Revelation 5 it is the role of the
saints in Heaven to carry our prayers
to God anyway, and since Hebrews 12:1 says that the saints
are a cloud of witnesses that surround
us and says that they are present
with us in our liturgical worship,
there is no reason to doubt that
it is a big deal to believe that
they can hear our requests.
Third, the Saints are not dead— they
are alive in Christ. Christ said, Whoever
follows me will never walk in darkness
but will have the light of life (John 8:12). Christ by his death
destroyed death and the power of
death (Hebrews 2:14-15)
in order that all who believe in
Him shall not perish but have eternal
life (John 3:16).
No, the saints are not dead. He is
not the God of the dead but of the
living! (Mark 12:27)
Fourth, we have Scriptural proof
that the Saints who have gone before
intercede for us in the presence
of God. In Jeremiah 15:1, written
long after Moses and Samuel were
dead, the Lord says,
"Even if Moses and Samuel
were to stand before me, my heart
would not go out to this people."
The implication is that Moses and
Samuel (whose lives did not overlap,
by the way, so this must refer to
an after-death act) can intercede
before God.
There is another, more
direct example of a saint interceding
in Heaven:
"Thus he armed every one
of them, not so much with confidence
of shields and spears, as with
comfortable and good words: and
beside that, he told them a dream
worthy to be believed, as if it
had been so indeed, which did
not a little rejoice them. And
this was his vision: That Onias,
who had been high priest, a virtuous
and a good man, reverend in conversation,
gentle in condition, well spoken
also, and exercised from a child
in all points of virtue, holding
up his hands prayed for the whole
body of the Jews. This done, in
like manner there appeared a man
with gray hairs, and exceeding
glorious, who was of a wonderful
and excellent majesty. Then Onias
answered, saying, This is a lover
of the brethren, who prayeth much
for the people, and for the holy
city, to wit, Jeremia[h] the prophet
of God. Whereupon Jeremia[h] holding
forth his right hand gave to Judas
a sword of gold, and in giving
it spake thus, Take this holy
sword, a gift from God, with the
which thou shalt wound the adversaries."
This book doesn't appear in Protestant
Bibles, but it was accepted in the
Early Church, and is accepted by
Catholics and Orthodox.
If it makes you feel any more comfortable,
you can think of it as I did, when
I was first struggling with the idea.
We know that the Saints (at least
in general) are with Christ and see
him face to face; we believe they
can pray to him for us; we know from
James that their prayer is effective.
The only remaining issue is how to
get our requests to them. There is
nothing wrong, if we so wish, in
praying to Christ, to convey our prayer
requests to the Saints so that they
can pray to him:
"Jesus, please ask St. Paul
to pray for me that I may understand
the Scripture he wrote."
From there you can simply abbreviate
it, and ask Jesus to consider any
prayer of yours in the form:
"St. So-and-So, pray for
me" as "Jesus, please
ask St. So-and-So to pray for
me."
Certainly, there can be no wickedness
in that approach.
I hope this helps you to understand
the Biblical nature of the intercession
of the Saints!
Yours in Christ,
Eric Ewanco
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