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In Luke Chapter 2, we read: Mary and Joseph
went to Jerusalem along with Jesus when He
was 12. On their way back, they left Jesus
behind by mistake. It took one day for Mary
to realize that her Son was missing and another
three days to find her lost Son.
My Catholic friend said that we should pray
to Mary, especially at the hour of death.
How could the Church of Rome teach her
followers to pray to Mary?
How could a mother who:
lost her only Son
didn't know anything about it for
a day, and
took three days to find Him
ever
take care of you and me?
Has Mary, herself, said that we should
pray to her?
Hasn't our Lord said:
"Come to me all those who are heavily
laden and I will give you rest."
(Matthew 11:28), and
"Him that comes to Me, I will never
cast away."
(John 6:37)?
Dinesh
{
How
can the Church of Rome teach Her followers
to pray to Mary, when Mary couldn't find Jesus? }
Eric
replied:
Dear Dinesh —
I think that's a very disrespectful attitude.
Haven't you done something stupid
in your life?
Would you want someone to say,
what you said, about you?
Some background information is in
order here. In the Middle East at
that period, people traveled in caravans,
the men in one caravan, the women
in another. Children would go with
either caravan. Since Mary and Joseph
were separated, it would be very
easy for them to assume that Jesus
was with the other caravan so this
is not so silly as it seems.
But let's assume she was ditzy. Hebrews 12 portrays Christian worship:
22 But ye are come unto mount
Sion, and unto the city of the
living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company
of angels, 23 To the general assembly
and church of the firstborn, which
are written in Heaven, and to
God the Judge of all, and to the
spirits of just men made perfect . . .
So during our worship, the spirits
of just men are present, and these
spirits have been made perfect. Hence,
when we die in Christ, we are made
perfect. James 5:16 says,
"The effectual fervent prayer
of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16)
Thus the prayers of a so-perfected
man avail much and Mary has certainly
been perfected.
17 "Then
the dragon was enraged at the
woman and went off to wage war
against the rest of her offspring — those
who keep God's commands
and hold fast their testimony
about Jesus."
Mary is our Mother.
Eric
Dinesh
replied:
Dear Eric,
Thank-you for your reply. You've
said that I am disrespectful. I respect
Mary but won't worship or bow before
one of her statues as millions of
Catholics do, simply by obeying the
man-made doctrines of the Church
of Rome. My Lord has not taught me
to do so. You asked me if I've done
anything stupid. I would be doing
something if I believe and follow
what you have said in your reply.
If the woman mentioned in Revelation
was Mary, John would have surely
named her! You think you are a genius,
more brilliant than John, and that
others are stupid. According to you,
wherever the word women or queen are
mentioned, whether it is in the Psalms
or Revelation, it should be considered
as Mary. Don't be so childish in
saying Mary is our mother. Jesus
never called her mother even once
in the Bible.
Coming back to that story, after
finding Him, His mother said to him
Mary didn't understand what Jesus
said to her at the time. Now you
want me and others to pray along
with you, to Mary and have Mary intercede
for us and save us at the hour of
our death.
Only God, not Mary, knows the time
of my death and your death.
For asking this you call me stupid.
The passage your quoted: 1 Timothy 2:1, talks about praying for others
not praying to others.
Just go a little further to 1 Timothy 2:5 and it says there is one God and
one mediator between men and God,
the man Christ Jesus.
5 For
there is one God, and there is
one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Jesus never said, Ask in my
mother Mary's name.
16 "So that whatever you ask the
Father in my name, he may give
it to you."
(John 15:16)
Mary, the respectful, earthly mother
of Jesus said,
5 "His
mother said to the servants, "Do
whatever he tells you."
(John 2:5)
but the Mary of the man-made Church
of Rome keeps on giving apparitions
and speaks words of blasphemy, saying
she is the:
Queen of Heaven,
Queen of the Church,
in short, the Queen of all.
She has said in these apparitions
if people do what I tell
you, many souls will be saved.
but the Bible says
13 whoever calls upon the name
of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved.
(Romans 10:13)
For that reason, I don't feel that I
am stupid for following the words
of the Bible.
May be it's those who follow the
other, Mary the Queen Of
Heaven?
We read in the Bible that Christ
is our King, but never is there a
Queen of Heaven.
The only Queen mentioned in the Scriptures
is an idol which was worshiped by
the pagans and to which the Jewish
women gave offerings, bringing the
wrath of God on them.
18 "the children gather wood,
and the fathers kindle the fire,
and the women knead their dough
to make cakes to the Queen of
Heaven, that they may provoke
me to anger".
4 "Do not make yourself images
of anything in heaven or on earth,
do not bow down to any idols or
worship it, because I am the Lord
your God and I tolerate no rivals".
Why then, is the Catholic Church
filled with images of Mary, dead
saints, and other idols etc.?
Why are their followers being
taught to bow before them and
worship them?
Waiting for your reply with thanks
in advance,
Dr. R. Dinesh Kowsky
India
Eric
replied:
Dear Dinesh —
You said: Thank-you for your reply. You've
said that I am disrespectful. I respect
Mary but won't worship or bow before
one of her statues as millions of
Catholics do, simply by obeying the
man-made doctrines of the Church
of Rome.
Have you actually met anyone
who worships Mary or do you just
assume that because someone bows
before her statue that they are
worshiping her?
I mean, did you actually ask
them, Are you worshiping
Mary as equal to God? and
gotten an affirmative answer?
We do not worship Mary. God alone
deserves worship. If you go to a
Catholic Mass, you'll find Mary mentioned
twice in passing, in the context
of others, neither of which, are
acts of worship.
It's very clear when you go to a
Catholic Mass who we worship.
Bowing is not inherently a form of
worship; it's just a form of respect.
Japanese bow to each other as a form
of greeting. The same was true among
the Hebrews. I'm sure you'll quote
the first commandment, but the exact
same Hebrew phraseology used in First
Commandment in Exodus is used by
righteous Isaac in speaking to Jacob
in Genesis 27:29:
"May nations serve you and
peoples bow down to you."
Even the prophet Nathan, surely a
righteous man, bowed before the king. So
they told the king, saying,
23 “Here is Nathan the prophet.” And
when he came in before the king,
he bowed down before the king
with his face to the ground. 1 Kings 1:23
David did too:
8 "Then David went out of the
cave and called out to Saul, 'My
Lord and king!' When Saul looked
behind him, David bowed down and
prostrated himself with his face
to the ground. 1 Samuel 24:8
In David's song of praise to the
Lord he says:
40 You made my adversaries
bow at my feet. 2 Samuel 22:40
39 You armed me with strength for
battle; you made my adversaries
bow at my feet.
So bowing was commonly done between
human beings. It is not, therefore,
against God's law to bow down before
Mary, as long as it is done merely
to honor (not worship) her.
I say you are disrespectful, not
because you won't honor Mary, but
because you basically call her an
incompetent mother. It is one thing
to honor. It is another to remain
reserved and objective.
It's quite another to accuse someone
of being an incompetent mother.
You said: My Lord has not taught me
to do so. You asked me if I've done
anything stupid. I would be doing
something if I believe and follow
what you have said in your reply.
Is this what Jesus would have
you say?
You said: If the woman mentioned in Revelation
was Mary, John would have surely
named her!
What makes you think that?
In John 2:1-3 and John 19:25-26,
John calls her the mother of
Jesus and does not call her
by name. In Revelation 12:5, he says
the woman brought forth
a male child, one who is to rule
all the nations with a rod of iron. This
can only be Jesus, hence the one
who brought Him forth is Mary. So
essentially, John is calling her
the mother of Jesus; just using more
indirect terms.
You said: You think you are a genius,
more brilliant than John, and that
others are stupid. According to you,
wherever the word women or queen are
mentioned, whether it is in the Psalms
or Revelation, it should be considered
as Mary.
My reasons are more subtle than that.
I am distilling a lot of deep study
into the Scriptures into a short
explanation. Unfortunately, time
does not permit me to go into all
the details of why, since much of
this is based on an exhaustive reading
of Scripture.
You said: Don't be so childish in
saying Mary is our mother. Jesus
never called her mother even once
in the Bible.
Mary didn't understand what Jesus
said to her at the time. Now you
want me and others to pray along
with you, to Mary and have Mary intercede
for us and save us at the hour of
our death.
Only God, not Mary, knows the time
of my death and your death.
Sir, you do not know what Mary does
and does not know. For all you know
it is the Lord's sovereign will to
reveal such things to her. The most
you can say is that we have no sure
evidence from Scripture that she
knows. Knowledge of the Life to Come
is far beyond your comprehension (and mine), and it would be sheer
arrogance to presume that we know
with certainty what those who have
fallen asleep in Christ know.
9 Eye has not seen, nor ear
heard, nor have entered into the
heart of man the things which
God has prepared for those who
love Him.
In Revelation 5:8 we see the elders in heaven carrying bowls
of incense which are
the prayers of the saints.
So we know that those in Heaven are
involved in carrying our prayers
to God seated on the Throne. Saintly
intercession is real.
You said: For asking this you call me stupid.
The passage your quoted: 1 Timothy 2:1, talks about praying for others not praying to others.
As you know, the official language
of the Catholic Church is Latin.
In Latin, the word for pray, orare,
is the same as the word to ask.
When we pray to someone,
we are not worshiping them, we are
merely asking them to pray for
us. We can do so because
the saints carry our prayers to the
throne room of God (Revelation 5:8),
and, frankly, if for no other reason,
the saints surround us. (Hebrews 12:1,23) We also know it is possible
because of Jeremiah 15:1.
You said: Just go a little further to 1 Timothy 2:5 and it says there is one God and
one mediator between men and God,
the man Christ Jesus.
5 For
there is one God, and there is
one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Jesus never said, Ask in my
mother Mary's name.
Well, that's not what we're asking;
we're asking in Jesus's namethrough
the intercession of Mary, just as
we ask our brothers and sisters on
Earth for their intercessory prayers.
You said:
16 "So that whatever you ask the
Father in my name, he may give
it to you."
(John 15:16)
Mary, the respectful, earthly mother
of Jesus said,
5 "His
mother said to the servants, "Do
whatever he tells you."
(John 2:5)
but the Mary of the man-made Church
of Rome keeps on giving apparitions
and speaks words of blasphemy, saying
she is the:
Queen of Heaven,
Queen of the Church,
in short, the Queen of all.
In Jewish culture, the queen was
the mother of the king because kings
were often polygamous,
it made sense for the queen to be
the mother and not some arbitrary
wife. You can see this in 1 Kings 2:19:
19 Bathsheba [Solomon's mother]
therefore went to King Solomon,
to speak to him for Adonijah.
And the king rose up to meet her
and bowed down to her, and sat
down on his throne and had a throne
set for the king's mother;
so she sat at his right hand.
So King Solomon stands and bows to
her, and there is none other, in
the kingdom that the king would do
that for, than the queen. Normally,
the protocol is that the supplicant
comes in and bows before the king;
in this case, the king bows before
her, and he brought in a throne for
her, and put her at his right hand,
the place of honor. In the same manner,
we believe that Christ has done that
for His mother, Mary.
You said: She has said in these apparitions
If people do what I tell
you, many souls will be saved.
but the Bible says
13 whoever calls upon the name
of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved.
(Romans 10:13)
For that reason, I don't feel that I
am stupid for following the words
of the Bible.
There is nothing wrong with following
those words and in fact I would urge
you to do so with all your heart.
Again, I would urge you to look at
our liturgy and see how we call
upon the name of the Lord so
that we may be saved. The central
character of the Mass is, in fact,
the Blood of Christ (together with
his Body), and we believe that it
is by that Blood of Christ that we
are saved.
Jesus is our Savior. It was His Death
on the Cross that saves us from our
sins, and it is His Grace alone that
everything is ultimately predicated
on. While it is possible for us to
save people (See James 5:20 and the scriptural
references), we do so only, in the
name of Christ, and through His Saving
Sacrifice.
You said:
May be it's those who follow the
other, Mary the Queen Of
Heaven?
We read in the Bible that Christ
is our King, but never is there a
Queen of Heaven.
Then why do we see a woman in Revelation 12 who has
a crown of stars clothed with
the sun with the moon under her
feet — this is definitely
symbolic of both Heaven and a queen
— who gives birth to The
One who will rule the nations
with a iron rod(just as Mary
did) and who flees into Egypt(just as Mary
did)?
If this is not Mary, who is it?
Answer me that question.
And, even if it isn't Mary, isn't
it still true that someone is
the Queen of Heaven, or at least
someone is crowned with heavenly
bodies and clothed with all the
other bodies, the ancients thought
of as heavenly, thus validating
the concept?
You said: The only Queen mentioned in the Scriptures
is an idol which was worshiped by
the pagans and to which the Jewish
women gave offerings, bringing the
wrath of God on them.
18 "the children gather wood,
and the fathers kindle the fire,
and the women knead their dough
to make cakes to the Queen of
Heaven, that they may provoke
me to anger".
Well, God calls the pagan Nebuchadnezzar
the king of kings in Ezekiel 26:7,
yet obviously Jesus is also called
the King of Kings. Just because someone
pagan is called queen of heaven in
the Old Testament, doesn't mean we
can't legitimately apply that to
someone in the New Testament.
Am I to say that we can't call
Jesus the king of kings because
Nebuchadnezzar was called the
king of kings?
You said: Now compare this false Mary presented
by Roman Church who claims she is
the:
Queen of Heaven
Queen of Apostles, and
Queen of Church
with the Mary of the Bible who is
clothed with humility saying, behold
the handmaid of the Lord.
"He who exalts himself will
be humbled and he who humbles himself
will be exalted". (Matthew 23:12) So it makes sense that the more humble she was, the more she would be exalted.
Is it not true?
You said: One of the Ten Commandments of God
says:
4 "Do not make yourself images
of anything in heaven or on earth,
do not bow down to any idols or
worship it, because I am the Lord
your God and I tolerate no rivals".
The point is whether you worship
them or not. We do not worship our
images.They are merely reminders
of those we love, and we bow to them
as one might kiss a picture of your
family.
You said:
Why then, is the Catholic Church
filled with images of Mary, dead
saints, and other idols etc.?
Why are their followers being
taught to bow before them and
worship them?
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Exodus 20:2) The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods." (Deuteronomy 6:13-14) God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.
2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.
Superstition
2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition. (cf. Matthew 23:16-22)
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. These empty idols make their worshippers empty: Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them. (Psalms 115:4-5, 8; cf. Isaiah 44:9-20; Jeremiah 10:1-16; Daniel 14:1-30; Baruch 6; Wisdom 13:1-15:19) God, however, is the living God (Joshua 3:10; Psalms 42:3; etc.) who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, You cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 6:24) Many martyrs died for not adoring the Beast (cf. Revelation 13-14) refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God. (cf. Galatians 5:20; Ephesians 5:5)
IV. "You Shall Not Make For Yourself A Graven Image . . ."
.
.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it. (St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45:PG 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium 126; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 67) The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
