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I am relatively new to your Holy Quotes but
I do appreciate you taking the time to compile
these quotes, and to put us more in touch with
the writings of the Early Fathers, the Saints,
etc. However, I would like to make a comment
about the most recent quote taken from St. Augustine.
Holy Quotes for Bernadette Price
Quotes of the Early Fathers and Christians of
the Church (33 A.D. to 750 A.D.)
"Only the Catholic Church is the Body of
Christ . . . Outside this body, no one is
animated by the Holy Spirit."
St. Augustine of Hippo (354 — 430 A.D.)
on the Church Mini-Bio: North African; bishop, theologian,
Doctor of the Church
It is true that although the Catholic Church
contains the fullness of truth, it is a truth
that continues to unfold and to become clearer and
clearer, and better and better articulated.
In the light of this, it is also true that not
every statement ever made by each and every Catholic
over the centuries, whether a Father of the Church,
Saint or Mystic, fully and wholly contains
the fullness of this truth, which we are required,
not only to believe and safeguard, but also to
pass on. Rather, at times, some statements are
limited to the scope of understanding of that
particular age or circumstance, but thankfully
the Spirit does not leave us in our ignorance, choosing to ignore other relevant information.
Rather, what we see is a continuing unfolding
of the truth, a widening and deepening of our understanding,
bringing us to greater clarity and wholeness.
In light of the Vatican II documents on the
Church as mystery
on ecumenism concerning having
communion, though an imperfect communion, and
on
the whole understanding of wherever truth is
so too is the Spirit of God. In so very many
ways, many a Catholic is so out of tune with
the Spirit, and very many non-Catholics are animated
and alive to, with, and in the Spirit.
To be Catholic is to be universal, and no less
could be said of God. Proposing God as being
confined solely to the Catholic box is ludicrous,
as it is ridiculously simplistic, and surely we,
meaning all of us, should know better by now.
It is over 40 years that the teachings of Vatican
II have been around.
Are we so unteachable?
Similar are the teachings from St. Augustine concerning
limbo. The Church, though interested in the
understanding at one point in time, came to see
and to believe that, although they could understand
St. Augustine's logic, from where we stand today,
it is clear that there is so much he did not
take into consideration, and therefore limbo
is not even mentioned in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, and nowhere
is it today found as a formal teaching of the
Church.
Such statements from Peter Lombard concerning Church and the one quoted above from Augustine
are now eternally outdated.
Please, I beg you, do
justice to the work of the Spirit in how it is
leading and guiding the Church, and keep alive
that vision as it unfolds, instead of inadvertently
locking us into myopic ways of preserving what is
now outdated and no longer the current position
of the Church, regarding non-Catholics, or for
that matter, God.
Regardless of good intentions, propagating
outdated theology can lead to real harm, not
only to all the hard work and dialogue that is
constantly taking place towards ecumenism, but
also it will help to solidify in the minds of
non-Catholics, that Catholics are just so full
of arrogance and that the split caused by the
reformation should be maintained.
"May they
all be one, Father, as you and I are one."
One
in truth and one in love.
I would like to see quotes reflecting the truth
of the current Catholic position, not otherwise,
unless so stated, or maybe several quotes showing
the development of faith. I am not ashamed of
any part of our history. A lot of it has been
a learning experience, even though we must have
tried the Spirit sorely at many a point in time.
To God be the glory, for leading us beyond our
faults and failures, and closer to the fullness
of truth and the establishment of His kingdom,
a unity in diversity.
Yours in Christ,
Bernadette
{ Why are you using eternally outdated theology that no longer represents the view of the Church? }
Mike replied:
Hi Bernadette,
I didn't see a question in your e-mail.
Your e-mail falls into one of the categories of questions that we don't answer.
While our main focus at AskACatholic.com/CPATS.ORG is on clarifying teachings and correcting misperceptions about the Catholic faith, let me comment on what you have said.
I agree with about 85% of it.
We have to differentiate between:
"Holy Quotes" spoken in a certain culture
and at a certain time, by holy men and women of our Divine and Catholic Faith, and
the doctrines and dogmas of the Church which must be believed by all Catholics.
For short, Holy Quotes are not necessarily doctrines or dogmas, but should be understood within
the development of the Church at a given point in time. This is why most of them are dated within the mini-bio that accompanies the saint's quote.
Reflecting on the work I've done on this project, I have:
a set of Scriptural Defenses for Church teachings (Apologetics)
but except for the Compendium of the Catechism for Christians and non-Christians, have no evangelization/teaching quotes. Yours would be a good idea.
I'll listen to where the Holy Spirit leads me in this area.
Maybe I can
e-mail a set of paragraphs from the Catechism of the Church daily?
That said, I'll have to take issue with you on several points.
You said:
In light of the Vatican II documents on the
Church as mystery
on ecumenism concerning having
communion, though an imperfect communion, and
on
the whole understanding of wherever truth is
so too is the Spirit of God. In so very many
ways, many a Catholic is so out of tune with
the Spirit, and very many non-Catholics are animated
and alive to, with, and in the Spirit.
The letters of Vatican II never encouraged false ecumenism. Like I tell
my Baptist friend,
"On faith issues we have discussed, we can agree
to agree; and in other areas, agree to disagree."
Only the Catholic Church
has the fullness of the truth. It is there! Other separated brethren agree
with some of that truth, and to that extent, we can celebrate with them
the truths we agree on. Those truths are the grace of the Holy Spirit of
God working in them, motivating them on to the fullness of truth.
Does
God allow people to be born non-Catholic, just to damn them?
No, of course
not! (See CCC 847) If Fred, my Baptist friend is saved, he will be saved
despite his Baptist beliefs, through the grace of the Catholic Church.
This does not mean the lay Catholic can just remain unconcerned and self-righteous,
and do nothing. That would be a major sin of omission, an omission of the
missionary work of the Church to bring all Americans and mankind to the
fullness of the Faith in the One Church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church.
Also, we have to always separate the Official Teachings of the Church,
from the bad behavior of some of its members. I am very familiar with the
zeal of our separated brethren. What it comes down to is:
They need what we have, and we need what they have.
The difference is that their need for all of the truths of the Church, the
Sacraments and the Church, Herself, is greater than our need to get off
our "butts" and get more involved in preaching and spreading the Gospel, yes, as lay Catholics! It's not just the priests job.
You said: To be Catholic is to be universal, and no less
could be said of God. Proposing God as being
confined solely to the Catholic box is ludicrous,
as it is ridiculously simplistic, and surely we,
meaning all of us, should know better by now.
It is over 40 years that the teachings of Vatican
II have been around.
Are we so unteachable?
I couldn't disagree with you more.
Yes, to be Catholic is to be universal but what does this mean?
830 The word catholic means universal, in the sense of according to the totality or in keeping with the whole. The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her.
"Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."
(St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Smyrn. 8,2:Apostolic Fathers,II/2,311)
In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him the fullness of the means of salvation. (Vatican II, Unitatis Redintegratio 3; Vatican II, Ad Gentes 6; Ephesians 1:22-23) which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession.
The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost (cf. Vatican II, Ad Gentes 4) and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race: (cf. Matthew 28:19)
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God's will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit. (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 13 §§ 1-2; cf. John 11:52)
So to share only part of the Gospel, or to be ashamed of the development of the Church's teaching, explained in its proper generational and cultural context, is ludicrous and puts the Church in a box!!
That's what the Reformation and fall out was all about!
Believe what you want to believe. Name it, claim it, then start your own faith!
You said: . . . surely we,
meaning all of us, should know better by now.
Are you suggesting that men know more the Jesus Our Lord and His Church?
You said: It is over 40 years that the teachings of Vatican
II have been around.
Are we so unteachable?
Surely, we are teachable.
Are you suggesting that the pagan teach Aquinas?
I personally believe the Church has to start teaching what Catholic Apologetics is in the early CCD classes and implementing similar programs at the parish level. This
would immunize our young faithful Catholics from Protestant ways of thinking
that they will obviously be receiving from friends and peers. Also, if our young
teen Catholics were knowledgeable about the Early Church Fathers and knew
what they taught — Surprise! — was Roman Catholic, it would be a big
help to the young Body of Christ.
You said: Similar are the teachings from St. Augustine concerning
limbo.
Limbo was never an official teaching of the Church, just a theological
proposition.
Side note: I couldn't find a quote of Peter Lombard in my database.
Can you forward
the Holy Quote to me?
Thanks for writing.
For those unaware of it, my Holy Quotes program can be found here:
At the time when Augustine said this, there was no other Church. There were
heretical groups such as the Gnostics and the Arians.
Both of these groups were not Christians because of their Christology.
Other than that, we had some "internal heresies", e.g., the Novations
and Donatists.
During the fifth century, two other groups, the Monophysites and Nestorians,
left the Church over issues of Christology. At the time, language was a
barrier to communication. These two groups from the East did not have the
same understanding of Greek (which, at the time, was the language of the
entire Church). Hence, semantical disagreements over Christology caused
the first significant schism. At the time, of course, no one realized the
problem was language.— .
The point is that, at the time, Augustine's claim was accurate.
John
Terry replied:
Hi Bernadette,
St Augustine did not have the privilege of infallibility. Only a Pope
speaking under defined conditions and a General Council, can define
dogma, that which is to be held de fide.
Many theologians, indeed Saints, have frequently erred in their pronouncements!
They look at Newman and his thesis on Development of Doctrine.
Another thought which your correspondent may not like, but which remains
doctrine,
is "extra ecclesia nulla salus" — Outside the Church there is no
salvation.
Over the past 40 years, the Church has developed/clarified her interpretation
of this doctrine, especially within the Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC
846. This reflects a view similar to how earlier theologians had interpreted
the dogma.
Kind regards,
Terry
Bernadette replied:
Excellent, both Terry and Mike.
Terry ended it exactly with what I was trying to say regarding our now
broader understanding of Church. Absolutely correct. Thanks for the great
information. Now I am looking forward to reading Newman's thesis on the Development
of Doctrine.
Much thanks again.
Shalom,
Bernadette
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