Dear Jerome —

Far more things happened than are written in the Gospels, which do not include every word spoken by the people concerned. (John 21:25)

However, the Hail Mary is in the New Testament, the first part was spoken by Gabriel and the second was spoken by Elizabeth. (Luke 1:28, Luke 1:42) The last part was added later as a petition, which was common to attach when praising a great person.

Mary Ann

Jerome —

We do bless Jesus in the same prayer.

Mary was acknowledged in the first catacomb pictures, and in the earliest Gospels. She was in the center of the group with the Twelve Apostles who awaited Pentecost. She was taken in by the Beloved Disciple, John, and we should all be beloved disciples and take her into our homes.

Mary Ann

Jerome —

There is much historical memory of Mary and her life with John. It is preserved in the Church's tradition. As for establishing churches, women didn't do that. Christ chose only men to be Apostles.

Mary was more than a vessel. Christ was physically made from her genes. He redeemed fallen humanity, so he had to bear our flesh, not some flesh made up in an instant by God. He was a true genetic Son of all of his forebears through Mary.

Finally, I am surprised that you think that you can honor Christ at all, by demeaning His mother. That is not the way to a man's heart! Mary can help us surrender to Christ. That is her job, to bring Christ to us, and us to Christ. She prays for us. She is a mother to us.

Since by Baptism we are incorporated into the New Adam, Christ's Living Body, we really become her children too. You are right that she is not supernatural, in herself. She is a humble handmaid of the Lord, whom He filled with grace from her beginning, so that no taint of sin would ever touch the flesh that would become the flesh of the Son of God.

Mary Ann

Jerome,

• Do you pray for people?
• Do you ask other people to pray for you?
• Do you ask preachers to pray for you?
• Do you think people lose their desire to help and pray for others when they get to Heaven?

Mary Ann

Jerome —

The Bible says Jesus prays for us eternally before the Father. The Bible speaks of a cloud of witnesses urging us on here on earth. (Hebrews 12:1) As for Elijah, we do pray to him. We pray to all the Saints. Hail just means hello or greetings.

You are correct that there is only one mediator but if your understanding of that passage is correct, then we shouldn't be praying for each other, as you are doing. The fact is, God has given us the great gift of being incorporated into Christ, the High Priest, and each of us shares in His prayer to the Father, through the Holy Spirit. That is why we can pray in the name of Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why the Spirit prays in us.

Each of us has different roles in the Body, but we are all priests, in the One Priest, Jesus Christ.

Some, however, have been ordained to be presbyters, men set aside, so that Christ through them, can make His Sacrifice, His prayer, present for us to share.

Mary Ann

Dear Jerome,

After reading your dialogue with Mary, it appears, like many, you were never properly catechized in the faith. For short, you left a Church you never knew or accepted.

• On what authority do you get your opinions?

It can't be the Bible, because the Bible was written:

• by Catholics and their ancestors
• for Catholics
• for use in the Catholic worship service, the Mass
  

That's just History 101. The Mass itself is loaded with Scripture quotes.

There's another question you have to consider:

• Who chose the books that make up the New Testament you read on a regular basis?

Historically, we know that Catholic bishops, guided by the Holy Spirit, chose those books in 382 A.D. at the Council of Rome. For that reason, whenever you, or any Protestant, reads from the New Testament, you are implicitly trusting the decision that Catholic bishops made back in 382 A.D.

Now let's talk about Jesus and Mary, for you can't talk about Jesus, without talking about Mary, because it was the Father's choice to send His Son, Jesus, incarnated, meaning made flesh, through a woman.

If you don't like that choice, then your problem is not with the Catholic Church, but with God, the Father.

• Could Mary have said to the Angel Gabriel, No, I don't want to become the Mother of God?

Yes! She had free will.
Did she? No.

So without Mary's Yes, to God the Father and the angel Gabriel, we wouldn't be saved according to the Father's Plan.

We know when we pray to Mary, as attested to in the Scriptures, she will always lead us to her Son, not herself. (John 2:5) We say Jesus was the effective means of salvation; meaning Jesus packs the punch, but Mary is the instrumental means of salvation.

When you share the Gospel with a non-Christian, you are an instrumental means of salvation for them as well and because you are In Christ, you are a co-mediator with Jesus called to preach the Gospel to the world. (1 Timothy 2:1-4) Yes, even if you are a Protestant! Just read the end of Matthew's Gospel where the Apostles were sent. (Matthew 28:16-20) We are called to continue what they started. In the same way, Mary was the ultimate instrumental means of salvation for all mankind, because without her, Yes!, to the angel Gabriel, Jesus could never have become Man, according to the Father's Plan.

Nevertheless, neither you nor Mary saved the non-Christian by ourselves, but both of you helped in assisting that non-Christian to know and learn about who Jesus is and the Catholic Church He founded on St. Peter. (Matthew 16:13-20)

• In what way is Mary the instrumental means of our salvation?
  

In the same way, the saints were. Mary had the same free will you and me do, so, again, without her yes to the angel Gabriel, the God the Father, respecting our free will, could not have sent His Son for our salvation by natural means. Mary's instrumental means was needed. You don't hear her mentioned much in the Gospel because of Mary's humble nature. Period.

In the same way, the Gospel could never have lasted over 2,000 years after Our Lady's Glorious Assumption, without the yes, from saints and martyrs of the Church to preserve and perpetuate the Catholic faith to this day.

• Have the prayers and works of evangelization by these saints in the past 2,000 years, undermined the sole mediation of Christ?
  
  <No!> Because they are In Christ, they manifest and make present Jesus Christ from generation to generation, as He commanded us: (Matthew 28:16-20).
  

The Hail Mary is a Scriptural prayer made up of Scripture passages from Luke and a petition for Mary to pray for us, in the same way you would ask someone for help, if your house burnt down. Catholics don't worship Mary, we give her high honor. If you hear something contrary to this, they are distorting what both Mary Ann, I, and all faithful Catholics believe.

You can believe whatever you want Jerome, but please don't distort what I believe as a practicing Catholic. If you find yourself in a situation where you are unsure what we believe, search for it in the on-line Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is my favorite one:

• St. Charles Borromeo's on-line version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
  — in Picayune, Mississippi

You said:
He can do the same for you, if you surrender your life to Him and let Him into your heart.

You have to be kidding! We have the Real Presence Jerome! We receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ weekly and daily if we wish.

You can't have more of a personal relationship with Christ than that, my friend!

That is the Church you have left. Now my questions for you:

• Does your denomination have bishops, deacons, and priests?
  

The Church of the New Testament and the Catholic Church does.

• Can I meet one of your bishops?
• Can I meet one of your deacons? and
• Can I meet one of your priests?
  
  
• If I want to be a Bible-believing Christian, and your congregation doesn't have clerical roles that I find in the New Testament, why should I join your group?
• Or, is it you, that belong to a man-made Church?

You said:
I realize that you were indoctrinated in the Catholic doctrine therefore you have been lied to

• On what historical grounds do you base this slander?
  

We base our faith on the words of Jesus Himself:

One of the most difficult things about this apostolate is discerning whether people are open to another viewpoint or are set in their own self-centered ways. I don't know why you left the Church but I would encourage you not to hide the reason in your subconscious, like:

• I was never really taught the faith correctly
• I would have had to change my lifestyle
• I had over bearing parents, or, like many,
• I was sacramentalized but never evangelized;
  for short, I never appreciated what I was given.

Besides the Oral Tradition of our Church, if you want the Biblical basis for some of what we believe, check out my Scripture Passage page below:

https://www.AskACatholic.com/ScripturePassages

Take care,

Mike

Hi, Jerome —

The Apostles wouldn't have prayed the Hail Mary while she was among the living, because she was still among them. If they wanted her to pray for them, and with them, they would have just asked her to pray with them.

That is actually all the Hail Mary is, it is a greeting — virtually word for word the greeting of the Archangel, Gabriel, followed by that of Elizabeth, (Luke 1:28, Luke 1:42) followed by a request that she pray for us; that is what praying to the saints is. It is not worship. It is a request for their assistance in prayer, just as you would ask your pastor or friend to pray for you.

We know that they can hear us if we bother to read the book of Hebrews, specifically the twelfth Chapter which describes the unbroken unity of the Church in Heaven and the Church on Earth. (Hebrews 12:1) This is also seen in Revelation, Chapter 5, verse 8 when the twenty-four elders fall down in prayer holding bowls of incense which are prayers of the saints being offered to God.

It is important to note that Mary's role is not so different that ours. She prays with and for the Church and it's members. She prays for the world, just as we do. She didn't cease to be a Christian just because she's in Heaven. Neither does anyone else. In fact, once we are in Heaven, we become far better Christians, more in tune with the Will of God, and therefore we can pray more according to His Will. This renders our prayers all the more powerful.

Now as for who has been lied to and who hasn't been Jerome —

You say that Mary herself knew she needed a Savior and rejoiced in Him.

Well duh, don't you think we can't read.

The Church has never claimed that Mary didn't need a Savior. Mary was saved, in and through Jesus Christ, just as you and I are being saved, and just as those in the Old Testament were saved, not knowing who the Messiah would be.

Nevertheless, the manner in which that salvation came to Mary was different than the way it came to you and I.

• Mary was saved before she fell. We have biblical evidence of other similar graces, although they are not exactly the same.
• John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother, Elizabeth's womb. So he didn't quite make it to the Billy Graham Crusade and walk the isle in order to be saved.
  
  No, he received the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth's womb, without a profession of faith or baptism and this all happened before the Calvary!! God simply gave him the grace.

In the same way, Catholics espouse that Mary was preserved from Original Sin from the moment of conception, by the future merits of Christ, so Mary was saved by the Cross just as you and I.

You are the one who has been lied to and fed a distortion and misrepresentation about the Catholic Church.

John

Dear Jerome,

• Did you read the reply I sent to you? or
• Did you want to just blast to me what your Protestant minister has taught you?
  

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked and I've answered the questions in your last reply, in my reply before that!

In the same way, visitors show and honor and respect to any of the Presidents of the United States, so the Pope is shown the same honor. Catholics do not worship the Pope.

When I read your last reply, all I heard were distorted views of what Catholics believe. Please do not distort what I believe as a Catholic, unless you wish to opening admit you are an anti-Catholic.

Whoever you are getting your information from is anti-Catholic!

This is unjust and unfair. I suggest you re-read my initial reply starting:

After reading your dialogue with Mary, it appears, like many,

I apologize if someone in the Church hurt you; we all have our faults. I've heard your talking points before and most of the time they are from hurt, uncatechized Catholics who either have a counter reaction to overbearing devout Catholic parents, or cannot accept the lifestyle the Church encourages.

Our group is not a debating society. We are here for sincere truth seekers. Please re-review our Questions we will not answer page.

I think you will find this posting on the Bible interesting:

• Are you exclusionary saying, "the Bible was written by Catholics, for Catholics, for use in the Catholic Mass"?

If you are truly interested in Christ and the one Church He founded, you will search our knowledge base of postings. We have answered almost every question under the sun; all you need to do is use the appropriate search (terms/words).

God Bless, and if you don't mind, I'll keep you in my prayers, though I certainly don't wish to undermine the sole mediatorship of Christ : )

Mike

Jerome,

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

Jerome, pray to in English simply means ask for.

You pray to your friends when you ask them to pray for you. We adore God. We ask friends, the saints, angels, and Mary, the greatest saint, to pray for us.

If I were you, I would not disrespect Jesus' mother; He probably doesn't like that.

• Why don't you sincerely ask Jesus what to do about His mother?

Mary Ann

Hi, Jerome —

God sent his angel to greet her with the words that mean filled to overflowing with grace.

The Holy Spirit spoke through Elizabeth saying she was blessed among women and Mary herself said, All nations will call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-55)

The Bible supports the special blessedness of Mary.

Mary Ann

Jerome —

I said not all things are written in reference to Scripture, not in reference to writings in general.
(John 21:25)

Praise of Mary is in the Scripture also. Blessed are you among women. (Luke 1:42) The Hail Mary was said by the angel, Gabriel and by Elizabeth. Mary prays with us for our intentions, just as she prayed for the Spirit with the Apostles on Pentecost. They wanted, asked, prayed with her to be with them. No one is alone with Jesus in Heaven.

In reference to your last two paragraphs on salvation, you are wrong.

All those people got to Heaven because of the plan of salvation through Christ, through His foreseen merits. And Christ comes through Mary. As for the Early Church, she prayed to Mary.

There are images in the catacombs of Mary with Jesus, and the Gospels themselves contain prayers to Mary.

Mary Ann

Hi, Jerome —

You said:
That is why the Early Church said no prayers to Mary. Because they realized that praying to Mary is a waste of time.

Not correct. No early Church Father could have said the Hail Mary because, in point of fact, there is little or no trace of the Hail Mary as an accepted devotional formula before about 1050 A.D.

All the evidence suggests that it took its rise from certain versicles and responsories occurring in the Little Office or Cursus of the Blessed Virgin which just at that time was coming into favour among the monastic orders. See the New Advent article on the Hail Mary.

So you are claiming something did not happen, that could never have happened.

Your claim that the reasoning is because it was a waste of time is ridiculous. For the first 500 to 700 years of the Church, the Church was developing, for the faithful, its central teachings of:

• Who Jesus Christ was, and
• condemning heresies that sprang up (from Catholic Answers) around Her teachings, like:

Here is a similar list of heresies, with some repeats, from my website AskACatholic.com:

• Christian heresies throughout Christendom.

What we do know is that the Early Church Fathers (who lived from 100 A.D. to 850 A.D.) did affirm:

• Mary is truly the Mother of God.
• Mary was conceived as a virgin.
• Mary was a virgin during the birth of Christ.
• Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ.
• Mary is the New Eve., and
• Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne, her mother, immaculately.

so if you, and your pastor, have a problem with these beliefs, then you both disagree with what the very first Christians believed. If you are a sincere questioner who is open to another view, buy this book:

• Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought

or read these additional quotes from the very first Christians from our friends at StayCatholic.com:

• The Early Church Fathers on the Catholic Church.
• The Early Church Fathers on The Mother of God
• The Early Church Fathers on The Immaculate Conception
• The Early Church Fathers on Mary's Perpetual Virginity
• The Early Church Fathers on The Assumption
• The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints
• The Early Church Fathers on The Mass — the way we worship God
• The Early Church Fathers on Homosexuality
• The Early Church Fathers on Clerical Celibacy
• The Early Church Fathers on Women's Ordination (to the Priesthood).
  and
  
• many, many more!

It's your choice but when you attack the Early Church Christians, you attack the very first followers of Jesus and what He wanted them to believe.

You also have a misunderstanding of Mary's sinlessness. This posting should help you understand our teaching better:

• How can you teach the Virgin Mary is without sin, when Romans 3:23 says all men have sinned?

Finally, let me clear up some misconceptions you may have from two of your replies.

You said:
Remember:

• He is the one who died on the Cross.
• He is the one who rose from the Dead.
• He is the one on the Right hand of God, the Father, making intercession for us.
• He is waiting for you to call on Him so He can save you and deliver you from Hell, so do it today, before it's to late.

and followed-up in your next reply:
It's only you Catholics who are putting her (Mary) on this pedestal when:

• she is a mere mortal, just like us
• subject to death, just like us
• one who saw bodily corruption, just like us
• awaiting to be resurrected, just like us.

Remember:

1. He [Jesus] is the one who died on the Cross [for our sins].
   Amen brother! Preach It!
   
   
2. He is the one who rose from the dead.
   Amen brother! Preach It!
   
   
3. He is the one on the right hand of God the Father, making intercession for us.
   Amen brother! Preach It!
   
   
4. He is waiting for you to call on Him so He can save you and deliver you from Hell, so do it today, before it's to late.
   Amen brother! Preach It!

1. she is a mere mortal, just like us
   Amen brother! Preach It, with the exception that she was immaculately conceived.
   
   
2. subject to death, just like us
   Amen brother! Preach It!
   
   
3. one who saw bodily corruption, just like us
   Incorrect! Yes, other bodies died corrupted but not hers.
   

• Plus, how do you know others saw her body corrupted?
• Where is that in the Bible?

We know from Oral Tradition (Luke 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Timothy 2:2, (1 Peter 1:25) and the Church that she was gloriously assumed into Heaven while you reject the Biblical based teaching of Oral Tradition.

4. awaiting to be resurrected, just like us.
   Amen brother! Preach It!

I think one of the biggest obstacles to our coming to an agreement is that your theology is based on a me and Jesus only theology, where as the Church bases Her theology on both:

• a me and Jesus theology, and
• a divine family theology

Our Lord did not come to save only you Jerome. He came to save all mankind and in doing so, He has asked you to be part of His Church (Matthew 16:13-19), not to run away from it.

Take care,

Mike