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Joe
Steel wrote: |
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Dear Mike,
I am not here to ask you a question, but to
make a statement.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 specifically states
that those who have died in Christ are dead,
and will not be in Heaven until the time of
the Second Coming of Christ, which presumably
hasn't occurred. I have read the entire New
Testament, and there are no specific
rules that say,
- some people can die in Christ,
and not go to Heaven until the Second Coming,
- while others can die in Christ and be immediately
taken up into Heaven.
I realize there are humans such as Elijah
and Enoch, and probably Moses and Samuel,
that have gone to Heaven, but those
were people who were stated as having gone
to Heaven, and most definitely with a special
purpose in mind, or else everyone who was
good and died would have been there too, e.g.,
David, "a man after God's own heart".
Thus, anybody who we would say went to
Heaven, must be mentioned in the Bible
as having gone to Heaven, or else:
- How are
we to know?
- For we know God is not the author of confusion,
right?
First Thessalonians clearly states that all
believers can, and do, die and stay dead (or
asleep) until the Resurrection.
- Don't you think God, being as kind and
honest as He is, and being as good a Provider
as He is, would provide us with information
like whether or not a major figure in the
Bible was in Heaven?
- Can you honestly show me some solid, Scriptural
proof that those people who Catholics believe
are in Heaven, are actually there?
3 13 And no man hath ascended up to Heaven,
but he that came down from Heaven, even
the Son of Man which is in Heaven.
John 3:13 |
2 34 For David is not ascended into the Heavens:
but he saith himself, The Lord said unto
my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
Acts 2:34 |
The Coming of the Lord
4 13 Brothers,
we do not want you to be ignorant about
those who fall asleep, or to grieve like
the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We
believe that Jesus died and rose again
and so we believe that God will bring with
Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According
to the Lord's own word, we tell you that
we who are still alive, who are left till
the coming of the Lord, will certainly
not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For
the Lord himself will come down from Heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of
the archangel and with the trumpet call
of God, and the dead in Christ will rise
first. 17 After
that, we who are still alive and are left
will be caught up together with them in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 |
- How can those who have died in Christ,
be in Heaven, if they have to be called
and rise up from their graves and tombs
at Christ's Second Coming?
- Are we simply to assume that we can pick
and choose who we believe has been taken
up into Heaven with no Scriptural evidence?
- Are we to assume anyone who has died in
Christ has gone to Heaven?
- And, if everyone who has died in Christ
goes to Heaven, what need would there be
for the Resurrection?
Everyone, who was supposed to be in Heaven,
would already be there when they have died,
and there would not be a need for a Resurrection,
since they would have already been made
perfect and would not be suffering. They
would be in paradise, living there for
eternity.
- Are you going to tell me we go to Heaven
after we die, but there is still a Resurrection?
- Or,
are you going to tell me that there is
no Resurrection?
God is not the author
of confusion, and there is no Scriptural
evidence that Paul, Mary, Peter, or anybody
else has been taken up, other then those
who the Bible says has been taken up!
Remember, liars will
have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God,
and God does care about the small affairs
of life, just like He cares about the big
ones.
But cowards who turn away from me, and
unbelievers, and the corrupt, and murderers,
and the immoral, and those who practice
witchcraft, and idol worshipers, and all
liars — their doom is in the lake
that burns with fire and sulfur. This is
the second death.
Revelation 21:8 |
10 Unless
you are faithful in small matters, you
won't be faithful in large ones. If you
cheat even a little, you won't be honest
with greater responsibilities. 11 And
if you are untrustworthy about worldly
wealth, who will trust you with the true
riches of Heaven?
Luke 16:10-11 |
I pray that you see the truth.
Your brother in Christ,
Joe Steel
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| { How can the Church pick and choose who has been taken
up into Heaven with no Scriptural support? } |
Mike
replied:
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Hi, Joe —
Thanks for your statement.
First, let me bring to your attention that there are certain e-mails we will not reply to. You can see a list of them on the Questions We Don't Answer page. (Note Number 4.)
Nevertheless, in brotherly Christian charity let me address what you have said.
You stated in your comment:
I am not here to ask you a question, but to
make a statement.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 specifically states
that those who have died in Christ are dead,
and will not be in Heaven until the time of
the Second Coming of Christ, which presumably
hasn't occurred. I have read the entire New
Testament, and there are no specific
rules that say,
- some people can die in Christ,
and not go to Heaven until the Second Coming,
- while others can die in Christ and be immediately
taken up into Heaven.
There are no rules but there is Oral Tradition. Like other Protestants, you don't accept Oral Tradition because you reject its Biblical basis. Oral Tradition is the Spoken Word that has been passed down from generation to generation from elders, priests and lay Catholics alike.
Jesus' Church exists to this very
day. He said He would send the
Holy Spirit (at Pentecost) to guide the teachers
of the Church on issues of faith
and morals. (John 16:13) If the
Christian believes that Jesus
is True God and True Man, and
that God would never lie to us
because of the very definition
of God, the Christian can be assured
that the Holy Spirit is being
faithful to the Scriptural promise
to guide the Church whether it is passed on by the Written Word of God or the Oral Word of God, even during times where Lay Catholics and clergy are scandalizing the faith.
When you refer to there being no
rules in Scripture, I believe you
are implying something is missing
from the Scriptures. I would disagree. It is all there. Here is the Biblical basis for
Oral Tradition in
the Bible:
If you want more, check out my list of Catholic Scripture verses
that defend Catholic doctrines:
The Roman Catholic Church is the
Guardian and Protector of this Oral
Tradition, which it, through the
Holy Spirit, passes divine and moral Truth down through
the centuries.
There are also big problems with
the Sola Scriptura theological
opinion of the Total Revelation of
Jesus Christ. One question that is
usually brought up by Catholic
apologists is:
- Where in the Bible, does it say
the Bible is the sole rule of
faith?
Side note: 2 Timothy 3:16 won't
cut it.
While it does say:
16 All
scripture is inspired by God and
profitable for teaching, for reproof,
for correction, and for training
in righteousness, 17 that
the man of God may be complete,
equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 |
It does not say
the Scriptures are the
ONLY or sole means of Revelation.
God who is so great and loves us
so much, usually gives us much more
than we need.
Matthew 28:18-20 read:
18 And
Jesus came and said to them,
"All
authority in heaven and on earth
has been given to me. 19 Go
therefore and make disciples of
all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching
them to observe all that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with
you always, to the close of the
age."
Matthew 28:18-20 |
Question:
If the "Sola Scriptura" theological
opinion of the Total Revelation of
Jesus Christ is correct, why is it
that before Our Lord ascended into
Heaven, He did not:
- Already have a known Old Testament
and New Testament Bible compiled,
that all knew was the Word of
God. This didn't happen until
382 A.D. at the council of Rome.
- What happened to believers who
didn't have the Bible before 382
A.D.?
- Does your personal pope-like
opinion say they all went to Hell
because they lacked the Scriptures?
- If the Bible is the sole rule of faith for the Christian, how many of the books did Jesus write? (If "Sola Scriptura" has any credibility, surely He wrote at least one before His Ascension.)
Also,
- What does the Bible say
on condoms?
- What does the Bible say on cloning?
- What does the Bible say on In
vitro-fertilization?
These last three questions deal with
issues Our Lord never had to deal
with before His Ascension, He
promised to send the Holy Spirit
to the Apostles and their successors
so they would be able to discern
proper Christian Teachings for the
centuries to come.
Finally, you said:
God is not the author
of confusion, and there is no Scriptural
evidence that Paul, Mary, Peter, or anybody
else has been taken up, other then those
who the Bible says has been taken up!
Your statement implies a complete rejection of Biblical Oral Tradition.
- In reference to Mary, what about the negative proofs of Mary's Assumption?
- We know where the bones of St. Peter and other saints are, but we don't know where the bones of the preeminent saint of the Catholic Church, Mary, Jesus' Mother, is?
- Where are Mary's bones, Joe?
A hint: You won't find them on Earth because, indeed, she was gloriously assumed into Heaven after she passed from this life.
Mike Humphrey
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John
replied to me via e-mail:
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Hi, Mike —
Your friend Joe, has a very selective
use of Scripture. Does he forget
the story of the Rich man and Lazarus.
(Luke 16:19-31) The texts he quotes all refer to
the return of Our Lord and the Resurrection
of the Dead, but he ignores the book
of Hebrews.
In Hebrews 11, the author
talks about the great faith of the
Old Testament Saints. He begins chapter 12 by referring
to these same Old Testament saints
as "a great crowd of witnesses". Later
in the chapter, when comparing Old
Testament worship to New Testament
worship, the text says:
12 22 In our worship, we come to Mt.
Zion, ... to among other things
the choir of angels, 23 the assembly
of God people and the
spirits of just men made perfect!!
Hebrews 12:22-23 |
This last phrase makes it clear,
that the souls of the faithful are
not asleep; only their bodies sleep.
Similar texts can be found in Revelation.
Among those texts is Revelation 5:8,
where the 24 elders representing
both Israel and the Church hold bowls
of incense, which are the prayers
of the Saints before the throne of
God.
St. Paul wrote:
5 8 I would rather be absent from
the body to be present with the
Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8 |
I could go on and on, but I think
it's best if your friend tries reading
texts in the context of the entire
inspired Canon, rather than the selective
proof texting he has done here.
Under His Mercy,
John DiMascio
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Mike
replied:
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Hi, Joe —
In addition to John's comments, we
also believe that those who died,
without mortal or serious sin on
their soul will go to Heaven, but
that any self-love the believer may
have held on to, is something God (and the
believer) will want to burn off before
entering Heaven. (Read Revelation 21:27)
His self-love is burned off in the
Holy Hospital of Heaven called Purgatory.
- Purgatory has nothing to do with
ones salvation;
- rather it has to
do with one's personal holiness.
The believer doesn't have to go to
Purgatory. If (he or she) was a saintly
(man or woman) who led a holy life and
had no self-love on (his or her) death
bed. They would go right to Heaven.
Purgatory is not a part of Hell,
it is a suburb of Heaven.
If you are really interested
in what Catholics believe on this
topic, this posting will help:
I hope this clarifies what the Roman
Catholic Church believes . . . and doesn't
believe. I also recommend you search our knowledge base. We have answered
over 5,952 questions about the Church
and Her Teachings.
From our "AskACatholic
Knowledge base" page
you can:
If you are still confused about what
we believe, don't hesitate to reply.
As a well-known Catholic apologist, Patrick Madrid said:
"The enemy is not our faith-sharer
friend, the enemy is ignorance."
Mike
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